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[MBTI General] F vs T: Cultural Value

phoenix13

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Being surrounded by doctors and scientists 8 hours a day 5 days a week, I have a vague feeling that Ts are both regarded as and regard themselves as superior (not personally) to Fs. Do you in your respective countries and social circles share this experience, and why do you think that is/isn't? (Note: I'm not asking which is "better", 'cause that's outrageously lame.)
 

Mondo

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EsTP
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6w7
I think nurture plays a role in our perceptions of different personality traits. I came from a family where T values were considered good and F values were considered immature and useless. This, I think has made me lean more towards T at times, even though I am naturally an F.
 

Seanan

Procrastinating
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Feb 18, 2008
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INTJ
Being surrounded by doctors and scientists 8 hours a day 5 days a week, I have a vague feeling that Ts are both regarded as and regard themselves as superior (not personally) to Fs. Do you in your respective countries and social circles share this experience, and why do you think that is/isn't? (Note: I'm not asking which is "better", 'cause that's outrageously lame.)

I must admit, I'm a little put off the value statement in the thread title. Its kind of a leap from the OP... but I guess you cleared it up on the "better"... anway:

I think you're probably right on that although I think people are embarrassed to admit it and don't feel comfortable talking about it, myself included. And, you're also right that it isn't personal. All that thinking washes away in individual friendships where there is plenty of conversation to prove it wrong. I think it probably stems from the subject matter that "Fs" and "Ts" find interesting and comfortable with. I'm speaking in general society... certainly not on an MBTI group nor one with so many college students where the topics are so varied and go so indepth. If I brought most of those up irl, I'ld be more suspect than I am now.

Anyway, society just sees certain subjects as cereberal and credits those interested or proficient in them with "intelligence." I'll use my experience in school as an example... Physics, Math, and other Sciences, as well as Philosophy majors were seen as the nerdy intellectuals. Whereas, those in the Arts or Performing Arts, etc weren't. Of couse, its obvious what the preponderance of types were in what fields by interest. But, naturally, put a "T" in an area where an "F" is proficient and they'll more than likely look pretty ignorant... in fact I think I've seen some finger pointing and chuckling right here.:yes: I do have more ideas on it but might unknowingly hurt someone as I don't know if its stereotyping.. don't want to offend.. so I'll wait until others give some input.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
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Sep 25, 2007
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2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
T = systemization, task oriented
F = empathizing, people oriented

You need both because they play an equally important role in life. We had a guy in my high school who was the epitome of a T and who earned a perfect score on both his SAT and ACT. However, his people skills were so bad that he could not function in the real world. I also had a friend who was the epitome of an F, but she found it incredibly difficult to learn anything new or keep a job. I find those who embrace the T are often lonely and disgusted with the world, whereas those who embrace the F are often ignorant and emotional. A balance makes a developed human being and I pity those who are so underdeveloped that they think they are somehow superior for embracing one side over the other.

The culture I came from embraced both facets and I consider myself lucky because of it.
 

alcea rosea

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I have worked many years in a place where Ti & Te are the dominant functions of the whole organization. That made me feel very inadequate because I knew I didn't fit in and I felt I wasn't good enough. So I started to develop myself to become very strong Te. I did succeed in developing my Te quite much until quite many different things happened in my life. After those times I started to realize that I'm no Ti or Te dominant person and I won't be. I realized what I was and I'm not trying to be something I'm not these days. I'm happy with myself and I appreciate myself as I am. Of course, there is always some personal development needed and not to say here that I wouldn't need any work with myself these days. There is always room for improvement but by accepting you core self it is much easier to live with yourself.
 

Badlands

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INTP
I don't think Fs are superior at all; I know many Ts who do though. Logic has its limit, as does feeling.
 

alcea rosea

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Who has said anything about F being superior? :thinking:
 

ygolo

My termites win
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Being surrounded by doctors and scientists 8 hours a day 5 days a week, I have a vague feeling that Ts are both regarded as and regard themselves as superior (not personally) to Fs. Do you in your respective countries and social circles share this experience, and why do you think that is/isn't? (Note: I'm not asking which is "better", 'cause that's outrageously lame.)

Actually, I am not sure Ts regard themselves as superior to Fs. I wouldn't know why your particular Ts give that impression to you.

If I had to guess, they may be confusing the T vs. F scale for the calm vs. limbic scale (from SLOAN/Big 5, but left off the Myers-Briggs). Being limbic can lead to neurosis.
 

alcea rosea

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Actually, I am not sure Ts regard themselves as superior to Fs.

I think what the orignial post meant is that people with F preference can feel themselves very uncomfortable in T environment (and vice versa of course) because it feels like nobody understands my reasoning and I don't understand the reasoning of the majority.
 

redacted

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Nov 28, 2007
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4,223
as cliche as it sounds, it's all about balance.

strong Ts are unfit because they're not aware of their ideals and can't navigate social situations.

strong Fs are unfit because they don't know how things work and can't strategize effectively.

i find myself feeling sorry for most people (=feel superior to them), anyways, regardless of whether they're Ts or Fs :). since i'm strong in Fe and Ti, i can almost always completely understand people from either side of the spectrum, and change my conversation style to better match their assumptions.

not trying to say that i'm perfectly balanced...i'd rather have strong Te and Fi than Fe and Ti.
 

nozflubber

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F is perceived as inferior because it is inferior. It is an outmoded evolutionary byproduct of a pre-industrialized humankind that interferes with clarity and corrupts our acumen.

Emotion comes at the expense of cognition. This is often fatal - Nature must know best.
 

Gabe

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F is perceived as inferior because it is inferior. It is an outmoded evolutionary byproduct of a pre-industrialized civilization that interferes with clarity and corrupts our acumen.

Emotion comes at the expense of cognition. This is often fatal - Nature must know best.

Are you being serious?
 

arborvitae

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ISFP
Actually, I am not sure Ts regard themselves as superior to Fs. I wouldn't know why your particular Ts give that impression to you.

Hmm, maybe this is why some T's come across as acting superior:

F is perceived as inferior because it is inferior. It is an outmoded evolutionary byproduct of a pre-industrialized humankind that interferes with clarity and corrupts our acumen.

I'm hoping this person is just trying to get us poor Feelers worked up :p
 

redacted

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F is perceived as inferior because it is inferior. It is an outmoded evolutionary byproduct of a pre-industrialized humankind that interferes with clarity and corrupts our acumen.

Emotion comes at the expense of cognition. This is often fatal - Nature must know best.

why would it be less fit it society today than in "pre-industrialized humankind"? please explain your logical steps more clearly.

Fe is quite helpful and efficient for humans (unless you're alone all the time). it provides a way to change the minds of others and rally people for or against causes. say you face a task that you can't solve alone -- Fe is an efficient way to create a team and keep it together.

Fi is helpful even if you're always alone. when you choose to do something, it's quite helpful to factor in how it will affect you. it makes way less sense to reject how it would affect you and be surprised later by how you're affected. Fi is quite logical because it uses deduction to decide if something is good or bad for you based on formulas that are refined throughout your life.

the "F" you're talking about actually has nothing to do with feeling functions. you seem to think of it as "random inexplicable emotional outbursts". i find that Ts are prone to that as well. in fact, some Ts i know tend to deny their F functions, only to explode later.

emotions are just a part of human limitation. either you factor that in or you don't. but it's pretty illogical not to.
 

nozflubber

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Does it matter if I'm serious? Can you not anaylze ideas without a human element attatched to it?

Emotion has much less utility to humans than cognition because our environment has changed at a must faster pace than our underlying biology. The social demands of a well-adjusted cognitive human conflict with the internal irrational animalistic state we manifest as. Smith saw this (albeit in an ultra-positive light), Marx saw this, and so did Freud. The entire concern of modern Clinical Psychology is to morph willing dysfunctional human beings in this rat race of life into well-adjusted, adaptive ones, and approaches mostly deal with how to manage emotions in a world where emotion is worthless and cognition is demanded.

You speak of F as if it is universally helpful - as if it somehow leads to higher fundamental truths because it's a part of us. Yes, you're right, it's illogical to disregard emotion when understanding human behavior, but it's not illogical to assume that it is dying and will take a smaller back seat in the future of humanity. F is only helpful when you want to talk to sick people.

In reality, You should not speak of F as helpful, but akin to that "mercy" dose of heroin you give to the addict because they are too weak and too dependant on the exhilation of an emotional high that they can no longer go on without it. Which I'm all for, actually. It's a great big white world, and all the F in the world is dying the good death.

Marilyn_Manson_Mechanical_Animals.jpg



I think my stitches itch.
 

GZA

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I don't really think F's will fade out or anything... the differences in people, the F vs T, or S vs N, or whatever... they all compliment eachother. I think it would be a huge regression to remove any type of person. They are all symbiotic... when you remove one species, the species surrounding it suffer as well.

Besides, emotion has plenty of utility. Emotion has a large part in reproduction, which is a pretty big deal. Besides, the "F" trait isn't just about emotion, but about values and ethics. It is a decision making process, just as rationality is.
 

heart

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F is perceived as inferior because it is inferior. It is an outmoded evolutionary byproduct of a pre-industrialized humankind that interferes with clarity and corrupts our acumen.

Emotion comes at the expense of cognition. This is often fatal - Nature must know best.

Even you won't be able to escape feeling and your negative attitude towards it will make it extra painful on you at midlife when your Fe begins to assert itself more and more. That which cannot bend a little may break.

nozflubber said:
Emotion has much less utility to humans than cognition because our environment has changed at a must faster pace than our underlying biology. The social demands of a well-adjusted cognitive human conflict with the internal irrational animalistic state we manifest as. Smith saw this (albeit in an ultra-positive light), Marx saw this, and so did Freud. The entire concern of modern Clinical Psychology is to morph willing dysfunctional human beings in this rat race of life into well-adjusted, adaptive ones, and approaches mostly deal with how to manage emotions in a world where emotion is worthless and cognition is demanded.

Why is your whole frame of reference what is inferior or superior that which is *useful* in the external, man-made world?

Is there nothing more to humanity than being a cog in the machine? This is a really strange perspective for P type to hold, if you will forgive me for saying so.

This world is an example of corrupted judgement gone out of control. I don't think it is the best example of humanity should strive for at its best. The world we live in is not the best of all possible worlds.
 

redacted

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Emotion has much less utility to humans than cognition because our environment has changed at a must faster pace than our underlying biology. The social demands of a well-adjusted cognitive human conflict with the internal irrational animalistic state we manifest as. Smith saw this (albeit in an ultra-positive light), Marx saw this, and so did Freud. The entire concern of modern Clinical Psychology is to morph willing dysfunctional human beings in this rat race of life into well-adjusted, adaptive ones, and approaches mostly deal with how to manage emotions in a world where emotion is worthless and cognition is demanded.

@ the bolded section: i don't know what world you're living in, but it sure isn't this one. emotion, in this world, is totally demanded. if you don't conform to certain social norms having to do with emotion, you'll be outright rejected. even people that understand your view will have massive pressure on them to not associate with you. our culture DEMANDS emotion at least as much as it demands "cognition", which i'll take to mean rationality devoid of the human element.

also, without social ideals about morality, the world becomes a much scarier place. there are no objective reasons not to kill, steal, rape, etc. if everyone could just do whatever they deem "logical", people would be less inclined to work together, which, on a large scale, would be terribly inefficient.

the truth about humans is that we're limited. sure, certain emotions are non-useful side effects of selection for useful traits. but if you start rejecting all human limitation, why don't you say something like "damn, it's so worthless that humans have to sleep. we live in a world where sleep is useless and wakefulness is demanded!"

it's not illogical to assume that it is dying and will take a smaller back seat in the future of humanity.

i think that's pretty illogical. how are people without emotions more reproductively fit, given the attitude of the common person today?

F is only helpful when you want to talk to sick people.

actually, no. you're telling me you act the exact same way with people that have the same values as you as you do with people who disagree with all your values? there's no way. you respect people that share your values. you trust them more. you confide in them. you value their ideas. you think they are "GOOD".

if someone disagreed with everything you said, you'd think to yourself -- what a retard; i'm not gonna give them the time of day. and if you were someday in a room with them and the person you trust, you'd weight the opinion of the person you trust higher, even if it was wrong.

In reality, You should not speak of F as helpful, but akin to that "mercy" dose of heroin you give to the addict because they are too weak and too dependant on the exhilation of an emotional high that they can no longer go on without it. Which I'm all for, actually. It's a great big white world, and all the F in the world is dying the good death.

seems like you think of F as "bad". very Fi of you.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
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8,828
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INFJ
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4w5
F is perceived as inferior because it is inferior. It is an outmoded evolutionary byproduct of a pre-industrialized humankind that interferes with clarity and corrupts our acumen.

Emotion comes at the expense of cognition. This is often fatal - Nature must know best.

<joke>

You're thinking of Fi, not Fe. Fi is indeed the source of those sorts of emotions that weaken society and stymie the mind. Fe is the higher, sentient kind of emotion, because it is placed on maintaining the welfare of an entire social entity, which is what humanity now functions as, rather than an individual. Without it, we wouldn't have the capacity to assess actions against their impact on the things that hold society/groups together in general, rather than against the things that hold together the systems that it is composed of. Fe at its best creates ethical norms for people that are beneficial to the whole, and uses the sense of guilt and shame we all feel as a way of inducing us to contribute to a larger entity, and ensuring the prosperity of societies.

Fi, on the other hand, is destructive and subversive. It encourages selfish, irrational values that are not even consistent with themselves. It often runs counter to the positive Fe that is beneficial, pushing things closer to destruction when it has its way. It cannot be reasoned or negotiated with, and makes its user as dangerous and unpredictable as a wild animal. Bubbling over with passion one moment, seething with hate the next, and yet you never notice any change in their demeanor. The corruptions/neuroses of every other function come when this function pollutes them. It is atavistic and wishes to return us to a more primitive and arbitrary reality without language, thought, or a true sense of justice.

Just letting you know that you're really only opposed to FP's, not FJ's.

</joke>
 
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