User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 31

Thread: Sense of Self

  1. #21
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I have to run to a meeting, but I ran across mention of psychologist R.D. Laing the other day. He coined an interesting phrase called "ontologically insecure" (vs ontologically secure).... a sense of self that isn't grounded in any permanent sense and constantly feels as if it were being lost.
    For what it’s worth (I’m a spastic Laing enthusiast), I happened to have part of Laing’s description of ontological insecurity already typed up in a Word document. This is from his book The Divided Self, chapter 3 (titled Ontological Insecurity):

    Biological birth is a definitive act whereby the infant organism is precipitated into the world. There it is, a new baby, a new biological entity, already with its own ways, real and alive, from our point of view. But what of the baby’s point of view? Under usual circumstances, the physical birth of a new living organism into the world inaugurates rapidly ongoing processes whereby within an amazingly short time the infant feels real and alive and has a sense of being an entity, with continuity in time and a location in space. In short, physical birth and biological aliveness are followed by the baby becoming existentially born as real and alive. Usually this development is taken for granted and affords the certainty upon which all other certainties depend. This is to say, not only do adults see children to be real biologically viable entities but they experience themselves as whole persons who are real and alive, and conjunctively experience other human beings as real and alive. These are self-validating data of experience.

    The individual, then, may experience his own being as real, alive, whole; as differentiated from the rest of the world in ordinary circumstances so clearly that his identity and autonomy are never in question; as a continuum in time; as having an inner consistency, substantiality, genuineness, and worth; as spatially co-extensive with the body; and, usually, as having begun in or around birth and liable to extinction with death. He thus has a firm core of ontological security.

    This, however, may not be the case. The individual in the ordinary circumstances of living may feel more unreal than real; in a literal sense, more dead than alive; precariously differentiated from the rest of the world, so that his identity and autonomy are always in question. He may lack the experience of his own temporal continuity. He may not possess an over-riding sense of personal consistency or cohesiveness. He may feel more insubstantial than substantial, and unable to assume the stuff he is made of is genuine, good, valuable. And he may feel his self as partially divorced from his body.

    It is, of course, inevitable that an individual whose experience of himself is of this order can no more live in a ‘secure’ world than he can be secure ‘in himself’. The whole ‘physiognomy’ of his world will be correspondingly different from that of the individual whose sense of self is securely established in its health and validity. Relatedness to other persons will be seen to have a radically different significance and function. To anticipate, we can say that in the individual whose own being is secure in this primary experiential sense, relatedness with others is potentially gratifying; whereas the ontologically insecure person is preoccupied with preserving rather than gratifying himself: the ordinary circumstances of everyday life constitute a continual and everyday threat.

    Only if this is realized is it possible to understand how certain psychoses can develop.

    If the individual cannot take the realness, aliveness, autonomy, and identity of himself and others for granted, then he has to become absorbed in contriving ways of trying to be real, of keeping himself or others alive, of preserving his identity, in efforts, as he will often put it, to prevent himself from losing his self. What are to most people everyday happenings, which are hardly noticed because they have no special significance, may become deeply significant in so far as they either contribute to the sustenance of the individual’s being or threaten him with non-being. Such an individual, for whom the elements of the world are coming to have, or have come to have, a different hierarchy of significance from that of the ordinary person, is beginning, as we say, to ‘live in a world of his own’, or has already come to do so. It is not true to say, however, without careful qualification, that he is losing ‘contact with’ reality, and withdrawing into himself. External events no longer affect him in the same way as they do others: it is not that they affect him less; on the contrary, frequently they affect him more. It is frequently not the case that he is becoming ‘indifferent’ and ‘withdrawn’. It may, however, be that the world of his experience comes to be one that he can no longer share with other people.
    Laing goes on to describe three different forms of anxiety the ‘ontologically insecure’ person might experience which separates them from others: engulfment, implosion and petrification. I don’t have these typed up and I can’t even find a link which might explain them right now because my browser (or something) is being wonky and won’t let me go to sites that show up on google searches. But I suspect it wouldn't be that hard to find.

    I'm not even confident it's particularly relevant to LL's op, but figured- since I already had it typed up (and the spastic Laing enthusiast in me got all enthralled because someone mentioned 'ontological insecurity')- I may as well post it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    LL, everyone has swaths of times where they don't care enough to have a strong opinion of everything. This doesn't necessary equate to not having a sense of self where each person sits in different places on the spectrum to having opinions.
    This^ was my first thought after reading the op, though I guess it's a matter of how much anxiety it causes and that much isn't really clear in the op.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  2. #22
    Senior Member redcheerio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    E9
    Posts
    912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    To me that looks like perfectly normal ESFP behavior, probably even EP in general. It seems to pose a problem to you because you also view it through the eyes of your IxTJ husband, who apparently has little understanding of your fickle nature.
    Whenever I have a hard time focusing on something, or making a decision, my INTJ husband can't compute how or why, haha. So I'm with you that way.

  3. #23
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    Ditto. I've always felt as though this may be a problem common to insecure Fi. But I'm not too certain of that.
    I thought it was a Pe and/or extrovert issue. I've seen Pi-Je types do it though (mainly IxFJs). Maybe it's just a human thing.

    I tend to have a different problem; knowing exactly what I think/feel/want, but staying quiet & dodging any questions because I am unable/unwilling to "lie" & I know what I say won't go over well.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #24
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEI
    Posts
    2,399

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherC View Post
    In that case well I would say the common problem of any type is to lean too heavily or too long on the dom. function. Miss Linguist try using your relief function or reading from the book on the coping with stress for your type. I found this one to be helpful for learning about myself under stress and how you can recognize it before it gets too drawn out: http://www.amazon.com/Was-That-Reall...2485606&sr=8-1

    Jennifer did the meeting go well? :-)
    I think I might agree with this being a possible reason for part of the problem. Se-Te loop, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    OMG You and me, too!!! I was soooo worried about that. I thought, "OMG has all this work put me over the edge? Have I lost it??? Am I going all BPD on everyone here???" I envy people who can simply be like a rock, like my husband. I think, "OMG why can't I be like that??? What's wrong with me?"

    I will check out your ideas and consider them.



    That's true, and thank you for putting things into perspective. But I'm rather concerned about the fact that I am quite flippant about things I shouldn't be. Or my body (physiologically and psychologically) is completely extreme: I'll go from eating organic, exercising daily, etc. to becoming active somewhere else and completely eating sugary things, not giving a crap, etc. In a given semester and the subsequent break (3 months each) I lose/gain anywhere up to 7 kilos. That's over 15 pounds???? Just one example of how flippant I can be in things that matter. And it's so extreme. Not to mention binges/starving modes, and heaven knows what other crazy things I do.
    I can actually relate to this quite a bit. I think for me personally, part of the problem was having merged my identity too much with my partner's at the time. I figured I must have been a SX/SP variant because of how extreme and volatile I felt, and how wishy washy I was in wanting to be with my boyfriend and how I also felt too merged with him and therefore desired separation. I don't know if this is your problem, and I'm not trying to point to that necessarily. But I personally found it hard to pinpoint why I was acting the way that I was and what it was going to take to break these cycles.

    Maybe if you can focus on what motivates you to make certain decisions you can get to the root of the problem.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #25
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    6,747

    Default

    Seems like an FP thing. We're adaptable and probably extra susceptible to energies outside of ourselves, therefore making it hard to have a precise set of consistent reactions and behaviors.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  6. #26
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    8,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Seems like an FP thing. We're adaptable and probably extra susceptible to energies outside of ourselves, therefore making it hard to have a precise set of consistent reactions and behaviors.
    This is the morph thing that some FPs do.

  7. #27
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,041

    Default

    Diffused sense of self, I'm quite sure what I saying is the same as what you are saying. I still have a lot of issues with this, BUT I think @entropie has a bit of it down.

    Part of the problem is that I tend to live through others. These other people tend to get absorbed into me as if they are a part of me.

    We have two selves, a constructed self formed by those around us, and a self based on what is created by the self.

    The latter is what you are looking at. And to find that part of yourself, you must work on yourself. This take a lot of differentiating whether the part you are looking at is the constructed self or not.

    The moment you let an opinion/conclusion affect you, you give yourself a chance to a constructed self. ("Mommy said doing X is bad, therefore I won't do X."

    Short-form?
    Constructed Self: Self created by your environment <--- this is created by those around you.
    Self-created Self: Self created by yourself <--- This is what you are looking for.
    Both are important.

  8. #28
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    3,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I thought it was a Pe and/or extrovert issue. I've seen Pi-Je types do it though (mainly IxFJs). Maybe it's just a human thing.

    I tend to have a different problem; knowing exactly what I think/feel/want, but staying quiet & dodging any questions because I am unable/unwilling to "lie" & I know what I say won't go over well.
    I generally think of it as a dominant perceiving function (Ni/Ne/Se/Si) and, when it comes to the enneagram, 3, 6, and 9.

    A dominant judging function judges the input received. Fi says to Ne "Do these ideas fit in with my values?" Fe says to Ni "Does this situation work with the idea given?"
    Fi tells Ne, "Nope, too bad! It doesn't work with my values!"
    Fe tells Ni, "Nope, the idea you've given don't work with this situation!"
    The auxiliary, in this case, is a guide to the hero. He tells you what you can do or where you can go, but you wouldn't really need to follow it.

    A dominant perceiving function gets judged by the input being received. Ni says to Fe "Does this idea work given the situation?" Ne says to Fi "Do these values fit in with my ideas?"
    Fe tells Ni "Boy, you need to fix your idea."
    Fi tells Ne "No these values don't fit with your ideas, change your ideas!"
    The auxiliary, in this case, is a instructor to the hero. He tells you were you should/shouldn't go or what you aren't doing "correctly."

    Doesn't sound like much, but how you say it makes a big difference.

  9. #29
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Burning Rave View Post
    I generally think of it as a dominant perceiving function (Ni/Ne/Se/Si) and, when it comes to the enneagram, 3, 6, and 9.

    A dominant judging function judges the input received. Fi says to Ne "Do these ideas fit in with my values?" Fe says to Ni "Does this situation work with the idea given?"
    Fi tells Ne, "Nope, too bad! It doesn't work with my values!"
    Fe tells Ni, "Nope, the idea you've given don't work with this situation!"

    A dominant perceiving function gets judged by the input being received. Ni says to Fe "Does this idea work given the situation?" Ne says to Fi "Do these values fit in with my ideas?"
    Fe tells Ni "Boy, you need to fix your ideas"
    Fi tells Ne "No these values don't fit with your ideas, change it!"

    Doesn't sound like much, but how you say it makes a big difference.
    Yes, that makes sense. I see the association with P, as being J-dom, I don't experience this confusion (I have my own kind of identity crises, but it's not in relation to external situations the way the OP describes). Since a person is most defined by their dominant thinking, and P functions are more "fickle" than J functions, then a P type might be less apt to settle on one view for their identity or opinions.

    I used to think Fe types often waited to hear others' opinions before forming theirs (as I've seen so many do it), but the more I think of it, it's mostly Fe-aux, not Fe-dom. I'll see Fe-dom more likely to state their opinion definitely but persuasively, or lock into those agreeing with them to form consensus to sway others...okay, I'm going on a tangent now .
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #30
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,938

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    3. How others perceive me (people love me = I'm lovable; people don't love me = I suck donkey balls, should crawl up under a big stone and stay there my whole life)
    I don't have a lot to add here, I think the others have made more interesting contributions...I do agree that is probably more of an FP issue and perhaps ExFP. For myself I feel I generally have a very strong sense of self and have had that since I was fairly young.

    However, I don't think you should feel "abnormal" because of what I quoted above - that was the bit I identified with most out of what you said, and you and I have very different types.

    For me that's just a case of not establishing the best boundaries and having a sense of self-worth overly dependent on others' opinions. It's certainly something I struggle with, and while it's not good, I think it's very common.
    Female
    INFJ
    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


    I DOORSLAMMING

Similar Threads

  1. sense of self
    By miss fortune in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 10-23-2015, 01:56 PM
  2. [Fe] Fe and not having a strong sense of self-identity.
    By Random Ness in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 12-22-2010, 02:50 PM
  3. Fear as a driving force and mind made sense of Self
    By phobik in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-31-2009, 07:27 AM
  4. [INTJ] INTJs, how strong sense of self do you have?
    By Virtual ghost in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-16-2009, 01:55 AM
  5. [INFP] Heavy sense of self and other
    By jeeze in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 12-15-2008, 10:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO