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  1. #1
    Member Moxiest's Avatar
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    Default Lies, forgiveness and trust

    I found out last week that one of my friends had been lying to me. THis REALLY bugs me... and it stinks, because since childhood, she has been one of my closest friends. I confronted her about it, and she was all "well, I'm not doing it anymore, please forgive me, I still see our friendship the same way blah blah blah" But, really, I cannot find it in me to trust her again.... and the really odd thing is, how hard it is for me to forgive her. I am incapable of seeing our friendship the same way.....

    The feelings are mixed. I am very sad to lose a friend, but know I cannot trust her again. There is no going back. What she did can't be undone.... what frustrates me even more is, she doesn't seem to understand the fullness of what she has done... or maybe she doesn't really even care. That really hurts... but not bad enough for me to try and compensate for her shortcomings. No, I cannot and will not make an excuse for her. What she did was wrong...... it's just SO hard to let go.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Sadly, I can empathize. It's difficult to establish trust with me, and I've learned to forgive small breaches of trust so that I can function and maintain friendships.

    That being said, if someone I trust knowingly violates that trust on something important, I'll never look at them the same way afterwards. My view has always been if you do it once, you'll do it again. I don't know if this is a trait peculiar to INFJ's, but since we do feel so very deeply it is difficult to try to continue being friends after that trust has been violated.

    I have an idea of exactly how much this sucks though, and I'm sorry :P

    Have you considered if you may be overreacting?

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    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Not saying it is okay to ever lie or erode trust, but was what she did THAT bad? Like, how are you determining how bad it is. Was it a white lie? A huge lie? Are you allowing it to affect you more than is reasonable? (Not saying this is the case.. but It takes alot for me to write someone off. I have to be basically convinced that there is no, zero, zip value maintaining any level of friendship, and most people I become very close friends with just aren't capeable of that)..
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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    Member Moxiest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Sadly, I can empathize. It's difficult to establish trust with me, and I've learned to forgive small breaches of trust so that I can function and maintain friendships.

    That being said, if someone I trust knowingly violates that trust on something important, I'll never look at them the same way afterwards. My view has always been if you do it once, you'll do it again. I don't know if this is a trait peculiar to INFJ's, but since we do feel so very deeply it is difficult to try to continue being friends after that trust has been violated.

    I have an idea of exactly how much this sucks though, and I'm sorry :P

    Have you considered if you may be overreacting?
    I didn't say we couldn't be friends anymore.... I just know that we won't be able to be the same kind of friends. No more divulging every thought and secret, I have your back no matter what, whatever it is, we're in this together sort of friends. Not because of retrieval on my end of anything but trust.... but those kinds of friends have a very high level of trust for/with each other.... does this make sense?

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    Member Moxiest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Not saying it is okay to ever lie or erode trust, but was what she did THAT bad? Like, how are you determining how bad it is. Was it a white lie? A huge lie? Are you allowing it to affect you more than is reasonable? (Not saying this is the case.. but It takes alot for me to write someone off. I have to be basically convinced that there is no, zero, zip value maintaining any level of friendship, and most people I become very close friends with just aren't capeable of that)..
    I certainly didn't think this friend was capable of this.... It was just a very bad, very hurtful, betrayal of my trust.... with alot of going behind my back over the period of about a year or so kind of dishonesty. I thought so highly of her..... it's odd how when you really love someone, you have the hardest time believing the bad about them. If someone had TOLD me she had lied to me, I wouldn't have believed it.... but I actually saw it with my own eyes. I can't walk away from the truth that my friend lied to me.... mulitple times! It hurts very deeply... I would like to think I was overreacting...... but, no, it was a really awful bunch of lies. It isn't possible to have the same level of trust with her, now that I know she lied to me.... and seemed to be ok with it.

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    Member Moxiest's Avatar
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    So, I guess I am wondering.......

    How do I draw this line, stick to it, and ensure my own feelings are now protected against being betrayed like this again? ...I hate so much that I even have to draw it... I know it is necessary, but hate that this is the reality of things......

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    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    Sorry that you're going through this. Betrayal from a trusted and loved friend hurts like nothing else.

    It sounds as if your discovery was very recent, so right now the wound is very raw... maybe give it some time. There are trustworthy people out there, but you have had the misfortune to place your trust in the wrong person. Sometimes friends can make mistakes that hurt us, but this sounds like a long-term betrayal, and her apparent lack of remorse is also worrying.

    I've had my trust broken by two very good (I thought) friends. One didn't express remorse at the time, but later came to realise what she'd done to hurt me and seemed genuinely remorseful. I would like to be friends with her again, though it will take time to rebuild. The other has never expressed any remorse, and I maintain a verrrrry superficial and distant 'friendship' with her, and am quietly stepping out of her life. She doesn't actually seem to care either (though she talks the talk about us being such 'good friends'), so that helps relieve the guilt. It's better not to have someone like her in my life--and if your friend proves similar, you will be surprised at the perspective that distance brings, and surprised at all the little things you overlooked that were telling you that this person never really deserved your trust at all. It's all a learning experience. Our relationships with others will never be perfectly smooth, but we can learn from them.
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    Senior Member jimrckhnd's Avatar
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    Trust to me is a basic. I don't mind being not told - not everything is my business - but actively lied to? There has to extraordinary circumstances for me to forgive that. I extend total trust to those whom I consider friends and betrayal of that trust is a mortal sin in my world.

    If for no other reason than most often when I have been lied to I have previously deduced the truth… and when I have presented that truth I have had it and my thought process negated by a lie I often, at first, accept. I can spend days and weeks trying to figure out where my logic went wrong.

    A lie very often strikes at the root of friendship but often is a blow at who I am – making me doubt the very essence of what I am.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

  9. #9
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxiest View Post
    So, I guess I am wondering.......

    How do I draw this line, stick to it, and ensure my own feelings are now protected against being betrayed like this again? ...I hate so much that I even have to draw it... I know it is necessary, but hate that this is the reality of things......
    I really, really hate writing people off too (even if only in degrees- sometimes I stay in contact but can’t consider them close). This thread (link here) might be helpful.

    With me- it never really feels like a choice. When I get a negative shock from someone close to me- I just feel confused for a while at first and inevitably a new ‘line’ that seems fairest surfaces on its own. The longer I knew the person, the longer that period of confusion lasts- and sometimes I try to force a peaceful conclusion because I want the person back and I assume I’ll get over it, only to find out later that something inside me is just too resistant to it. My point is that finding a new ‘line’ takes time and grieving over the initial loss is unavoidable- it’s just going to feel bad for a while, no matter how you decide to handle it. But after a while the grieving gets better and eventually goes away.

    @ the bolded, because I’m not sure if it’s in reference to the person in the op: I think the crux is that trust lost needs to be earned back- it can’t be a decision, it has to be a series of experiences that proves the person gets what they did was hurtful and they won’t do it again. Damaged friendships need to be stuck in that sort of purgatory for a while if the person wants to earn the trust back. I think- in order to protect your own feelings- it’s important to keep this in mind while trying to impose some temporary ‘line’ (until a resolution that seems best emerges on its own). If a person gets impatient with it- or manipulative (like trying to make the ‘purgatory’ look vindictive- when it’s really just a necessary part of earning trust back)- that’s indication they don’t realize how hurtful their behavior was. Just remember the other person brought the ‘purgatory’ upon themselves, and their behavior/attitude during this period will pretty much determine where the ‘line’ ends up.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  10. #10
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxiest View Post
    I found out last week that one of my friends had been lying to me. THis REALLY bugs me... and it stinks, because since childhood, she has been one of my closest friends. I confronted her about it, and she was all "well, I'm not doing it anymore, please forgive me, I still see our friendship the same way blah blah blah" But, really, I cannot find it in me to trust her again.... and the really odd thing is, how hard it is for me to forgive her. I am incapable of seeing our friendship the same way.....
    With that sort of half-assed apology I'm not surprised you're having trouble forgiving her. It doesn't seem like she fully appreciates what you're feeling and lacks any sort of humility. Its kind of a "I'm sorry I got caught" or a "Its in the past, just get over it." sort of thing. I would make it clear that this isn't good enough. She needs to properly acknowledge she's done wrong and ask for a second chance; she should genuinely apologise for her actions and seek your forgiveness, and not expect it from you. Basically the two of you can't move past it all, until the hurt itself, and the causes of it, have been sufficiently addressed.

    My sister's boyfriend cheated on her and she forgave him without this step. He said over and over how much he loved her, and wanted to be with her, but he never properly apologised. He wouldn't openly acknowledge that he did wrong and that he needed to change his behaviour in future - which to me was a major danger sign. She was so in love with him and wanted to forgive him so much that she did. You can guess what happened. A few months afterward he did it again.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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