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  1. #1
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    Default ESTP & INFJ shadowdance

    What are your experiences with ESTPs?
    I have worked closely in a group with a person I believe to be an ESTP. All in all I found the co-operation quite disturbing. I had a very strong instant gut reaction that I should keep away from this person and this person has never been comfortable with me either, so feeling must be mutual, though more deeply felt from my part I suspect.
    On occasion we get along ok, sometimes even famously, as we are both jokers and get up to all sort of mischief. I usually provide the bad idea and this person eggs everyone on to implemet it... I've had loads of fun with this person.
    Other than that though I genuinely do not trust her and I do think she's superficial and not particularly innovative, and she, I think, thinks my heads too big for my shoulders, I'm a stick in the mud, I think too highly of myself and I believe she really just can't understand what people see in me and my work in general. She has actually said this accidentally in a heated moment.
    But live and let live... until I found out my team wanted to replace me with a friend of hers. I was shocked as I had worked with these people for some years and had opened up to them...in an INFJ way atleast. I had a meltdown and left and got severely depressed. While I was in this state this person was the only one who kept regular contact with me. I was in my lowest lows and thought "Maybe I have misjudged this person. When I was scared to leave my house this person even THREW ME A PARTY and gathered all my friends, took care of everything etc.. !!!! My inner voice still kept warning me. Now I just came to realize as I got better that in the group I used to work in it was actually this person who had promoted and maneuvered my replacement. The introverts in the group had not even been consulted, the other extrovert and one of the three force factors in the group (me being one, but only because of the value of my creative input) is a "talk it to ya straight" kind of a person and said it only seemed like a good idea because she was convinced by this persons persuasion that if I was to go the group morale would improve...and she said it was a mistake and apologized. ...so I just feel utterly used for being so grateful for the person who plotted my downfall in the first place. Plotted as in vilified my character to everyone to the point where though nothing was said at first the atmosphere of hostility was so intense that I actually had to excuse myself on a few occasions because I was about to have a panic attack at work.
    Are there irreconsilable differences between our personality types, or was it just a one off? What are your experiences with ESTPs?

  2. #2
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    I wouldn't put the blame on the type, but the person in question.

  3. #3
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    I don't know what this thread is about, but Shadowdancer is a pretty cool prestige class in 3.5 edition of DnD.

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    I suppose I rambled a fair bit. I'm a little tired and stressed.
    Just wanted to know what kind of experiences other INFJs have had with ESTPs. How the two types usually relate to each other as types. Wether there are some general difficulties people have experienced or some especially positive aspects to the interaction.
    I know no type is "bad", and that this said individual is not representative of the type. I just wanted to assess wether some of the friction was caused by possible type to type misunderstanding.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    One of my pals in the forum is an ESTP. He's happily married to an INFJ.
    By the way, invite the ESTP to join the forum so I can get their side of the story.

  6. #6
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    One of my best INFJ friends was married to an ESTP for 5 years, but they divorced.

    They loved one another, but were never able to communicate effectively/understand each other. The last two years my INFJ friend tried many various things, tried counseling, took both to counseling, tried to make it work, but the ESTP was not 'there' - was not receptive to it. It took the divorce itself and his learnings from that to get to that maturity point and realize what happened. He was blind to the dynamics prior to that end. I realize this is one-sided, but even two years after the divorce, she wanted further clarity and they got together a few weeks ago and she really wanted to know what she did wrong, where things slipped from his perspective, why it didn't work when he clearly and obviously loved her, why he didn't listen when she was saying things weren't going well, what happened. He mentioned a few things that made communication difficult, but said point-blank 90% was his fault. With them, it was a belated syncing up, and the syncing up didn't occur until he was slammed with the reality of it being over. It's like.. he didn't see any of it prior, or didn't want to see it, or didn't take her seriously when she said things needed to be fixed/addressed.. and he certainly didn't take the counseling seriously, which was her final straw where she threw up her hands and said it was over. I want to make it clear I don't think he's a bad guy, and she obviously played a role too, and obviously they both loved one another as they got married. He wasn't manipulative/bad/whatever in the slightest; he by all counts adored her - he was just completely and utterly clueless to the relationship crumbling under his feet, and never thought there was a problem until it was too late.

    I think ESTP+INFJ *can*work, because there's an obvious attraction and chemistry and the two can complement, but I think it is much harder than many matchups due to the fact that in the end, the two have very different driving forces & motivations. So I think there is more to overcome / more stumbling blocks than in some other relationships. But in the end, all relationships require maturity, common ground/vision, and both parties being willing to put forth the effort, understanding, and work.
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  7. #7
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    It sounds to me like the OP had a bad experience with an "unhealthy" person, rather than it being particularly type-dependent. ESTPs often get characterized as "amoral" or "manipulative". I suspect that if they chose to be manipulative, they would probably be past-masters at it. However, if you spend time on this forum you'll find that there is someone or some people here who've had problems with manipulative people of every single type, certainly including INFJs.

    The ESTP who Jag mentioned who's married to an INFJ, Halla (at least I'm pretty sure that's who he meant!) is a super-cool guy and obviously would do anything for his family and his INFJ. He's also been very open about the fact that he and his wife had many challenges for years, which were helped eventually by marriage counselling. A lot of those challenges sounded like they were related to type and communication - much in the way that Cascade mentioned above with the people she knows.

    I'm not sure if I've known any ESTPs - very likely, but I wouldn't be able to identify them for sure. In theory, as far as romantic pairings go, they sound pretty sexy to me. But I imagine there could be a ton of communication and outlook issues to negotiate. It also seems to be well-documented on this site that INFJs and ESTJs have quite a strong attraction but also have a great many difficulties regarding communication, outlook and approach.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Agent Jelly's Avatar
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    I was friends with a INFJ on and off for 2 years. She was a lesbian (idk if this had anything to do with it). But if I payed attention to anyone other than her she'd get extremely jealous and send me texts saying, "well I guess we shouldn't be friends anymore since you've replaced me". It always left me puzzled. I valued our friendship we talked about a vast majority of things and did a lot of random things together. One day she texted me and told me that I needed to delete her number and forget she ever existed and she'd do the same. Because we are too different and our friendship wasn't going to work. I really don't know what she was alluding at! But anyhow she borrowed the first two seasons of trueblood from me and never gave them back

    I don't know if this experience helps you at all. I think it was an odd one. My husbands sister is a INFJ (i think a very unhealthy one) and we do not get along very well. She is very high maintence and overly critical and expects the whole world to do whatever she wants however she wants. And then will brood if things don't go her way (which they rarely do). I think if she weren't so depressed I'd enjoy being around her.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Agent Jelly's Avatar
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    I was friends with a INFJ on and off for 2 years. She was a lesbian (idk if this had anything to do with it). But if I payed attention to anyone other than her she'd get extremely jealous and send me texts saying, "well I guess we shouldn't be friends anymore since you've replaced me". It always left me puzzled. I valued our friendship we talked about a vast majority of things and did a lot of random things together. One day she texted me and told me that I needed to delete her number and forget she ever existed and she'd do the same. Because we are too different and our friendship wasn't going to work. I really don't know what she was alluding at! But anyhow she borrowed the first two seasons of trueblood from me and never gave them back

    I don't know if this experience helps you at all. I think it was an odd one. My husbands sister is a INFJ (i think a very unhealthy one) and we do not get along very well. She is very high maintence and overly critical and expects the whole world to do whatever she wants however she wants. And then will brood if things don't go her way (which they rarely do). I think if she weren't so depressed I'd enjoy being around her.

  10. #10
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    I think in my friends perspective I would be high maintenance, as I tend to only communicate "heavy" subjects to people I'm friends with in one on one situations to and I feel she felt perhaps felt it to be a tad "suffocating". I admire her drive and effectiveness and being able to make atmospheres pleasant for people to be in. I just don't think she gets my Ne at all and that is pretty much the motor of my being and consequently misses the main point in me. If you take that out of my persona there's not much left really. Not that I can understand Se... I mean I occasionally walk into trees and lampposts when I go out and I'm definitely not in the present now as much as sowing seeds for tomorrow. I can see the INFJ-ESTP relations being tricky and I would say more so for the INFJ.
    This person I'm speaking of has done things I would class as immoral to other people too though, so maybe it's her, not her type. That said I confess to having the typical INFJ weaknesses which generally irk people. Brooding on past transgressions being one of them...as witnessed. No one deserves to be treated like I was though. There would have been fairer ways to handle things.

    Edit: As for what her beef with me is it would revolve around the same grievances that most people have with INFJs in general: Being too serious and grave about things, having an air of arrogance and perfectionism. Being too introverted and sullen at times and super serious about having to have a serious "meaning" behind what we were doing. Being impatient when things are tested out (I have a really good internal way of testing various options in my head and knowing what will work and what wont because I've already performed a "testdrive" in my head in a few seconds. It's hard for me to wait while others repeat the very same same operations in real life, which takes a heck of a long time...) <---Coming back to air of arrogance...but certainly I was not working with a choir of angels and I feel that I have a fair deal of understanding when it comes to other's faults, but also what are people's saving graces, talents and special abilities.
    I just wonder from the P.O.V of an ESTP experience what would be the general irritants that they encounter with INFJs, so I get a better idea of how I might have rubbed her the wrong way. What are the main motivations in life and concerning friendships and all that jazz. Maybe it just really really wasn't such a big deal for her. If I would ever have done that to someone it would have required a massive amount of malicious intent.
    Last edited by Reverie; 07-30-2011 at 11:32 AM. Reason: afterthought

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