[MBTI General] How do NFJs develop morals?

[Elfboy]

most of the NFJs I know seem to have a decently developed sense of morals, but, without Fi, how do you develop them?

 

[InvisibleJim]

most of the NFJs I know seem to have a decently developed sense of morals, but, without Fi, how do you develop them?

Through the observation of what morals 'are' and 'are appropriate' from their observation.

There was a particularly neat scientific study based upon the wild west. The discovery was that when enough 'moralists' spotted immoral/cheating/biased behaviour that a turning point was reached where a society moves from 'lawless' to 'lawful'. The groups who support immorality/cheating/biased decision making suddenly flip morals when they observe the presence of moralists in their society.

 

[Elfboy]

oh, so is what you're saying that morals are more or less "inherited" by Fe users and created by Fi users?

 

[Faine]

I don't really know to be honest. It started off with what I was told was the right thing by parents and authority figures... and now it's just whatever I feel is right, often going against what I was taught. The only rule I think people should live by, generally, is "do what you want so long as it hurts no one." If someone is being harmed, even if it's in a small way, then I'm likely to consider it 'wrong', but if an action doesn't effect anybody then... why care? And if it actively helps people, well, that's good.

Is that perhaps my Fi function getting muddled in with my Fe? I'm not sure. I'm not very good at analysing the different functions.

 

[InvisibleJim]

oh, so is what you're saying that morals are more or less "inherited" by Fe users and created by Fi users?

Well, not exactly. It is 'inherited' from the environment and has inertia as opposed to generated by consciously introspecting. Just as logic is inherited by Te users from the environment. It's a matter of people touching the environment to understand how it works. This is markedly hilarious in xxxP types, where the xFP believes they have the right to tell others what to 'think' but no-one has the right to scruitinise what they feel and for xTP types where they have the right to tell others what to 'feel' but similarly no-one is allowed to scruitinse what they 'think'. Perceiver-rationality is funny business to the observer.

 

[Elfboy]

Well, not exactly. It is 'inherited' from the environment and has inertia as opposed to generated by consciously introspecting. Just as logic is inherited by Te users from the environment. It's a matter of people touching the environment to understand how it works. This is markedly hilarious in xxxP types, where the xFP believes they have the right to tell others what to 'think' but no-one has the right to scruitinise what they feel and for xTP types where they have the right to tell others what to 'feel' but similarly no-one is allowed to scruitinse what they 'think'. Perceiver-rationality is funny business to the observer.

interesting, I find Si and Fe rather humorous to observe on the J end. with Ps, I mostly find the information gather processes to be funny (Ne and Se)

 

[Elfboy]

I don't really know to be honest. It started off with what I was told was the right thing by parents and authority figures... and now it's just whatever I feel is right, often going against what I was taught. The only rule I think people should live by, generally, is "do what you want so long as it hurts no one." If someone is being harmed, even if it's in a small way, then I'm likely to consider it 'wrong', but if an action doesn't effect anybody then... why care? And if it actively helps people, well, that's good.

Is that perhaps my Fi function getting muddled in with my Fe? I'm not sure. I'm not very good at analysing the different functions.

hmm, I see. so are you saying the values your parents taught you are more of a "starting point" that you then tweaked using Ni and Ti to make more sense, thus coming to your own decision of what is right and wrong? if so, then essentially the process is like what I do, except backwards

 

[Elfboy]

hmm, I see. so are you saying the values your parents taught you are more of a "starting point" that you then tweaked using Ni and Ti to make more sense, thus coming to your own decision of what is right and wrong? if so, then essentially the process is like what I do, except backwards

for example: I believe it is fundamentally wrong that the government should be able to dictate the drinking age of it's citizens. however, if my pure, unbridled Fi had it's way and all drinking laws were instantly repealed, the rate of drunk driving accidents would shoot up 5 times. hence, Te gives me prudence, restraint and rationality based on external logic and evidence

Edit: point being, my values work internal to external and yours work external to internal

 

[InvisibleJim]

interesting, I find Si and Fe rather humorous to observe on the J end. with Ps, I mostly find the information gather processes to be funny (Ne and Se)

You don't get it yet, but you'll get it eventually.

 

[Elfboy]

You don't get it yet, but you'll get it eventually.

I get it, I was making a different point

 

[Giggly]

for example: I believe it is fundamentally wrong that the government should be able to dictate the drinking age of it's citizens. however, if my pure, unbridled Fi had it's way and all drinking laws were instantly repealed, the rate of drunk driving accidents would shoot up 5 times. hence, Te gives me prudence, restraint and rationality based on external logic and evidence

Edit: point being, my values work internal to external and yours work external to internal

My values and morals have always worked this way. I've said it several times here that feeling starts with Fi for me. there were always things I was taught as a child and still to this day by parents/others/society that I reject and some i accept. I am still an Fe user though but don't ask me how. Its just something I feel strongly.

 

[Elfboy]

My values and morals have always worked this way. I've said it several times here that feeling starts with Fi for me. there were always things I was taught as a child and still to this day by others/society that I reject and some i accept. I am still an Fe user though but don't ask me how. Its just something I feel strongly.

I'm very tempted to ask you why, but at the very least, do you know other Fe users who feel this way?

 

[Giggly]

I'm very tempted to ask you why, but at the very least, do you know other Fe users who feel this way?

I've never asked anyone I know how exactly they developed their morals. As for why I'm an Fe user, I'll search myself and try to come back and answer.

 

[Faine]

hmm, I see. so are you saying the values your parents taught you are more of a "starting point" that you then tweaked using Ni and Ti to make more sense, thus coming to your own decision of what is right and wrong? if so, then essentially the process is like what I do, except backwards

Hmm, yes. I think that sounds about right.

for example: I believe it is fundamentally wrong that the government should be able to dictate the drinking age of it's citizens. however, if my pure, unbridled Fi had it's way and all drinking laws were instantly repealed, the rate of drunk driving accidents would shoot up 5 times. hence, Te gives me prudence, restraint and rationality based on external logic and evidence

Edit: point being, my values work internal to external and yours work external to internal

I think that's probably as close to hitting the nail on the head as were likely to get. It's very hard to pin-point where my ideas start from as most everything tends to go through Ni before it reaches Fe. All I know is that it'd be a mistake to assume that Fe users base their morals and principles purely on what is socially acceptable in their culture of the time. Morals and principles are something much more personal to an individual, I think, perhaps based on personal experiences and how much an individual is willing to think about those things rather than just accept what is given to them.

 

[skylights]

I don't really know to be honest. It started off with what I was told was the right thing by parents and authority figures... and now it's just whatever I feel is right, often going against what I was taught. The only rule I think people should live by, generally, is "do what you want so long as it hurts no one."

that's essentially what i believe and how i think of it as well. i'm not convinced that Fi and Fe are always very different.

Well, not exactly. It is 'inherited' from the environment and has inertia as opposed to generated by consciously introspecting. Just as logic is inherited by Te users from the environment. It's a matter of people touching the environment to understand how it works. This is markedly hilarious in xxxP types, where the xFP believes they have the right to tell others what to 'think' but no-one has the right to scruitinise what they feel and for xTP types where they have the right to tell others what to 'feel' but similarly no-one is allowed to scruitinse what they 'think'. Perceiver-rationality is funny business to the observer.

this is true. and very tricky when you have a TP parent and an FP child! or vice versa, i'm sure.

the way i understand it, is it's essentially the same process of using compassion and empathy to develop rules for how to treat others and how oneself should be treated. the difference is that Fe generally starts from the "you" viewpoint, looking at how one's actions affect others and how others' actions affect the dynamics between people. Fi generally starts with the "i" viewpoint, looking at how others' actions affect the self and how others' actions affect others' selves. essentially Fe is looking "between" while Fi is looking "within". that is why Fe's viewpoint is "inherited", as Jim said - it's garnered from taking external information and assimilating it with the preexisting internal, while Fi tends to produce its own viewpoint then assimilate it with the preexisting external. and then as counterbalance we have either Te or Ti to do the opposite process.

hence we occasionally end up with oblivious, unrealistic Fi and shallow, restrictive Te - or oblivious, unrealistic Ti and shallow, restrictive Fe.

 

[Totenkindly]

The way i understand it, is it's essentially the same process of using compassion and empathy to develop rules for how to treat others and how oneself should be treated. the difference is that Fe generally starts from the "you" viewpoint, looking at how one's actions affect others and how others' actions affect the dynamics between people. Fi generally starts with the "i" viewpoint, looking at how others' actions affect the self and how others' actions affect others' selves. essentially Fe is looking "between" while Fi is looking "within". that is why Fe's viewpoint is "inherited", as Jim said - it's garnered from taking external information and assimilating it with the preexisting internal, while Fi tends to produce its own viewpoint then assimilate it with the preexisting external. and then as counterbalance we have either Te or Ti to do the opposite process.

I was writing something up based on Jim's basic concept, but your explanation sums it up nicely from what I can tell -- you caught the nuance here I was looking for.

 

[skylights]

Careful now. You are going to stop being friends with the NP mods if you carry on with being honest with your dangerous, provocative and clearly off-topic ideas.

see, that's the thing i don't understand about "off-topic." i suppose right now i'm going "off-topic", talking about off-topicness, but in truth being off-topic is related to alternate scenarios which is related to the TP/FP difference you brought up which is related to Fi and Fe which is related to how NFJs develop morals. and how NFJs develop morals is immediately connected to forum issues because there are NFJs who use their moral reasoning to moderate the forums.

to the Ne-dom mind i am not sure there is any such thing as "off-topic"... the concept of an idea-"thread" which stays on one subject alone is clearly foreign to me. all topics are essentially one topic, being as there is but one ultimate interconnected reality. "off-topicness" seems mostly an illusion to me, though i do understand how it would be annoying to start a thread and have it immediately derail, with one's question never answered or subject pursued.

i posted something to you somewhere where i was essentially thinking this but did not say it specifically. and now i'm being terribly vague, but i assume you understand. i think there are certain cognitive tendencies forum moderation prefers, if completely by accident. and then individual mods tend to think along their own lines, which blurs boundaries.

 

[Randomnity]

the way i understand it, is it's essentially the same process of using compassion and empathy to develop rules for how to treat others and how oneself should be treated. the difference is that Fe generally starts from the "you" viewpoint, looking at how one's actions affect others and how others' actions affect the dynamics between people. Fi generally starts with the "i" viewpoint, looking at how others' actions affect the self and how others' actions affect others' selves. essentially Fe is looking "between" while Fi is looking "within". that is why Fe's viewpoint is "inherited", as Jim said - it's garnered from taking external information and assimilating it with the preexisting internal, while Fi tends to produce its own viewpoint then assimilate it with the preexisting external. and then as counterbalance we have either Te or Ti to do the opposite process.

hence we occasionally end up with oblivious, unrealistic Fi and shallow, restrictive Te - or oblivious, unrealistic Ti and shallow, restrictive Fe.

This is a really good explanation! I definitely identify more with the Fe development of morals. I think it's important to point out that Fi (obviously) is not inherently moral, or tending towards morals, or any similar nonsense. Every person has their own individual moral guidelines, and Fe doms are certainly not immoral savages. Neither do Fe users simply parrot back what they've been taught - that's missing the critical "processing/analyzing/reflecting" steps involved. That's even disregarding that everyone uses every function.

 

[InvisibleJim]

to the Ne-dom mind i am not sure there is any such thing as "off-topic"... the concept of an idea-"thread" which stays on one subject alone is clearly foreign to me. all topics are essentially one topic, being as there is but one ultimate interconnected reality. "off-topicness" seems mostly an illusion to me, though i do understand how it would be annoying to start a thread and have it immediately derail, with one's question never answered or subject pursued.

You got it!

 

[Totenkindly]

see, that's the thing i don't understand about "off-topic." i suppose right now i'm going "off-topic", talking about off-topicness, but in truth being off-topic is related to alternate scenarios which is related to the TP/FP difference you brought up which is related to Fi and Fe which is related to how NFJs develop morals. and how NFJs develop morals is immediately connected to forum issues because there are NFJs who use their moral reasoning to moderate the forums.

to the Ne-dom mind i am not sure there is any such thing as "off-topic"... the concept of an idea-"thread" which stays on one subject alone is clearly foreign to me. all topics are essentially one topic, being as there is but one ultimate interconnected reality. "off-topicness" seems mostly an illusion to me, though i do understand how it would be annoying to start a thread and have it immediately derail, with one's question never answered or subject pursued.

i posted something to you somewhere where i was essentially thinking this but did not say it specifically. and now i'm being terribly vague, but i assume you understand. i think there are certain cognitive tendencies forum moderation prefers, if completely by accident. and then individual mods tend to think along their own lines, which blurs boundaries.

Oh, you're not off-topic. (I think Jim's comment was meant more as a typical mod dig than as any sort of real assessment of your posting intent, so take it in that light.)

Since I'm Ne-intensive, I see all topics as connected anyway; I usually only get concerned if something completely derails, doesn't show signs of going back, and the culprits are aware that people are trying to keep things marginally on track but keep dragging them elsewhere.

(In that case, Fe rules dominate: Don't take over someone else's thread, start your own instead. Virtual real estate here for you guys is free. There is no reason to swipe someone else's thread. Where does that Fe rule come from, for me? I dunno. It seems Ti/Fe, it's a rational judgment based on the logic above -- give people autonomy to do their own thing, do your own thing in your own space, there's no real need to disrespect someone else's space.)