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  1. #21
    Glycerine
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    I take in the information from the environment, analyze it, and decide on my OWN what my morals are but typically, I would say my morals aren't absolute... i see it more in shades of grey and nuances.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I've been watching my daughter (INFJ) grow up, she's 13 now. I find her fascinating.

    My ISFJ ex has this very regimented set of social rules of what is expected and what must be done and how it should be done. So my daughter, with her IFJ approach and Fe secondary, has absorbed SOME of that... except that absorbed is not really the right word.

    Instead, I find that she chooses to honor and speak in that Fe style language in order to implement the goals she has for herself inwardly. She definitely will bend/break rules that aren't suiting her purposes. She also doesn't seem hung up on the rules as some sort of universal absolute in themselves. They are just tools. (I feel like the rules/tools and the goals are much more closely tied, or perhaps the same, in ISFJs.) She knows the likely result if she follows them vs breaks them, and she chooses what she wants to do based on what outcome she desires at the time. (She's also the most strong-willed of my three children -- the others are Ti primary boy and Se primary boy.)

    I would have to say that her own internal morality is more broad, ambiguous sense of equal respect for all people. Where I have seen her really stretch herself and take risks is in befriending people who are ostractized by her classmates. She sees all people as worthy of respect on some level, and so when someone is cut out of the group just for being different or as a target, she specifically will befriend them and build a connection with them.

    Sometimes that investment has been hard on her -- she wants to reaffirm their personhood but then often has to draw additional boundaries since she has other friends as well she wants as part of her life, and she has limited time and resources -- but basically I just see it as some sort of broad philanthropic sense. She also cannot handle watching violence directed at others. She can't really discuss people being hurt badly or watching violent movies where people are badly hurt and/or emoting a lot of pain.

    So where do NFJ morals come from? She's only Fe secondary, so here she has some broad morality all of her own, and she is using Fe perspective in order to express and channel that morality, I think. I'm just not sure it's this cut-and-dried thing. Function theory has its limits.
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  3. #23
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I've been watching my daughter (INFJ) grow up, she's 13 now. I find her fascinating.

    My ISFJ ex has this very regimented set of social rules of what is expected and what must be done and how it should be done. So my daughter, with her IFJ approach and Fe secondary, has absorbed SOME of that... except that absorbed is not really the right word.

    Instead, I find that she chooses to honor and speak in that Fe style language in order to implement the goals she has for herself inwardly. She definitely will bend/break rules that aren't suiting her purposes. She also doesn't seem hung up on the rules as some sort of universal absolute in themselves. They are just tools. (I feel like the rules/tools and the goals are much more closely tied, or perhaps the same, in ISFJs.) She knows the likely result if she follows them vs breaks them, and she chooses what she wants to do based on what outcome she desires at the time. (She's also the most strong-willed of my three children -- the others are Ti primary boy and Se primary boy.)

    I would have to say that her own internal morality is more broad, ambiguous sense of equal respect for all people. Where I have seen her really stretch herself and take risks is in befriending people who are ostractized by her classmates. She sees all people as worthy of respect on some level, and so when someone is cut out of the group just for being different or as a target, she specifically will befriend them and build a connection with them.

    Sometimes that investment has been hard on her -- she wants to reaffirm their personhood but then often has to draw additional boundaries since she has other friends as well she wants as part of her life, and she has limited time and resources -- but basically I just see it as some sort of broad philanthropic sense. She also cannot handle watching violence directed at others. She can't really discuss people being hurt badly or watching violent movies where people are badly hurt and/or emoting a lot of pain.

    So where do NFJ morals come from? She's only Fe secondary, so here she has some broad morality all of her own, and she is using Fe perspective in order to express and channel that morality, I think. I'm just not sure it's this cut-and-dried thing. Function theory has its limits.
    re the bolded: I'm ISFJ and I'm more like your daughter.

  4. #24
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, you're not off-topic. (I think Jim's comment was meant more as a typical mod dig than as any sort of real assessment of your posting intent, so take it in that light.)

    Since I'm Ne-intensive, I see all topics as connected anyway; I usually only get concerned if something completely derails, doesn't show signs of going back, and the culprits are aware that people are trying to keep things marginally on track but keep dragging them elsewhere.

    (In that case, Fe rules dominate: Don't take over someone else's thread, start your own instead. Virtual real estate here for you guys is free. There is no reason to swipe someone else's thread. Where does that Fe rule come from, for me? I dunno. It seems Ti/Fe, it's a rational judgment based on the logic above -- give people autonomy to do their own thing, do your own thing in your own space, there's no real need to disrespect someone else's space.)
    haha, i know what it was thank you for the heads up anyway though.

    my feelings on thread derailment - separate, of course, from understanding that this is not my personal board and i am grateful to have the right to participate here - are essentially that unless it is clearly harmful, there is no reason why a thread should not be allowed to progress naturally, like a conversation. i don't have any feelings of "this is my thread / your thread, get your own"... if you start a new thread it may not have the same good energy as the one currently taking place. i think i see that in a Ne fashion - since Ne uses external elements to draw ideas from, starting a new thread is unpleasant as it is out of the blue, separate from the accrued energy and ideas and concepts and interrelations of the previous thread. much better to jut into a new topic on an old thread, and connect back to the old topic if it becomes illuminating. if someone wants to talk about the old topic, they are always free to. in my own blog i am so happy when others pop in and say something, even if completely random. it's new energy, new ideas, a new spark. if i want it related back to my subject, i can do that perfectly well myself. if it's interesting enough, others will talk about it also. if not, why force the horse to be beaten?

    i do think that perhaps in general mod-user relations on this board are more clear to a Fe perspective. please don't think i'm complaining; it is not my board and i more than appreciate the work of you and the other mods and admins and haight, of course. but Fe is master of the realm of between-group interaction, and those of us with less of it perhaps are not always as gifted at understanding what is fair from certain points of view. like i said - i have no sense of thread "ownership", beyond blogs. even on my own blog i hardly do. it just is not something that naturally enters my thought process. ideas don't "belong"... they just are.

    so... yeah. my own post was meant as perhaps a demonstration of a line of reasoning that perhaps has not been considered by some.

    and now that i truly have derailed... my ESFJ mom sounds quite similar to your INFJ daughter, Jennifer. the way i see her interact with people is incredibly fluid. she creates positive people-atmospheres wherever she goes. i think she acts on a less static sense of morality and more one that flows as people do. not that it is any lesser than that of Fi - it is simply more dynamic. it adjusts to meet others, as makes sense per theory.

  5. #25
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Jennifer, that is a perfect description of an INFJ's moral bent. It's exactly like that for me, anyway. I find myself drawn to the ostrasized ones. They're the ones who need me the most.
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  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    re the bolded: I'm ISFJ and I'm more like your daughter.
    Thanks, I was actually hoping you would comment on this.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #27
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    NFJs develop their sense of morality in the early years of their childhood, mostly by studying their parents, but environmental and societal factors also play a role in this.

    You know, just like any other person would.

  8. #28
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Hm. Initially, like in my very young years, I think my morals were more fervently based around social norms and seemed more wide-spread. This just being from observation and idealism regarding what should/shouldn't be done.
    Now it seems to be the same in ways, but turned a bit sour in translation and more abrasive. Over the years I've assessed my external world, assessed what social norms tend to work or cause the most discord, and from there I sort and establish what matters to me to uphold. I've also assessed not wanting to overextend myself to causes outside of my range. Mine just tend to get bitterly torn between a desire for ideal outcome and a sense of self-preservation.

    I do think a number of other ENFJs are more open-hearted with their morals, finding hope in overextending themselves in their belief systems. It's likely why I don't identify fully as one of the cuddly ENFJs that may make wide-scale attempts at harmony. I work in small segments, blunt-force-traumaing all of my well-meaning, even with myself.
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