[Fe] Is Fe fake or manipulative?

[Glycerine]

Here's a question. What types are not manipulative or "fake"?

 

[amazingdatagirl]

...our concern for others is contingent upon whether the "beholden" has, first, inklings of a self, and ,second, whether he or she is interested in developing the self's potential.

Sounds like there are Ni-strings attached to your Fe compassion. Who decides whether the other party has "inklings of a self" or how that self potential should be developed? Fi-users may interpret this kind of statement as well-intentioned paternalism.

NOTE: Please do not interpret my comment as xNFJ bashing. I am merely suggesting another POV.

Here's a question. What types are not manipulative or "fake"?

ALL personalities have the potential to manipulate others - some types may be more "talented" in this area but human beings have an innate desire to influence their social environment and can be quite inventive when it comes to acting on those impulses.

 

[Pan-en-theist]

Oooo...I go to defend Fe and wouldn't you know I'd invoke an INTP's shadow/anima. Now, we're getting somewhere.
My Ni experiment of championing Fe worked. I went fishing and I caught a fish. An ISTP, another thinker, started this thread.
We're doing shadow therapy.

 

[INTPness]

Oooo...I go to defend Fe and wouldn't you know I'd invoke an INTP's shadow/anima. Now, we're getting somewhere.
My Ni experiment of championing Fe worked. I went fishing and I caught a fish. An ISTP, another thinker, started this thread.
We're doing shadow therapy.

Good grief. All we're doing is talking openly about one of the functions - Fe. No harm in that right?

Where does all this shadow function and "here come the INTP's" stuff come from? It's just a straightforward discussion about Fe. I think it's time for me to go find a new thread.

 

[onemoretime]

Oooo...I go to defend Fe and wouldn't you know I'd invoke an INTP's shadow/anima. Now, we're getting somewhere.
My Ni experiment of championing Fe worked. I went fishing and I caught a fish. An ISTP, another thinker, started this thread.
We're doing shadow therapy.

Yup. Nothing more than "what's so special about (function)," because even though someone doesn't get it, they can't shake that nagging feeling that it is important nonetheless.

 

[Glycerine]

Besides it not an original idea for a thread. These threads are almost always guaranteed to get heated.

 

[jixmixfix]

End thread.

Start thread.

 

[onemoretime]

Good grief. All we're doing is talking openly about one of the functions - Fe. No harm in that right?

Where does all this shadow function and "here come the INTP's" stuff come from? It's just a straightforward discussion about Fe. I think it's time for me to go find a new thread.

It comes from this sense that there is an objective assessment of such things, when there inherently is not. Fe is not fake or manipulative. A person feels fake or manipulative when either invoking or responding to Fe, because it occupies a rejected and devalued role in that person's self-concept. In the fourth position, it's similar to how most children reject taking upon gender norms that run opposite to their own identity, because it's simply "not them." That's what meant by it being the animus/anima position. That childish dislike manifests itself as the inferior function.

 

[jixmixfix]

Good grief. All we're doing is talking openly about one of the functions - Fe. No harm in that right?

Where does all this shadow function and "here come the INTP's" stuff come from? It's just a straightforward discussion about Fe. I think it's time for me to go find a new thread.

+1

 

[Resonance]

No, I don't think that's an accurate comparison. If we don't analyze my individual functions - if we just look at me as a person in that moment and ask what I'm thinking or how I feel, the answer would be "I'm feeling very angry, pissed, disrespected, and I want to express that anger to those people." But, instead, I just use Fe and am nice to them (for the sake of social harmony). As I said, it is both fake and non-fake at the same time. It's not fake because I really do want social harmony. It is fake because I'm surpressing my true feelings/thoughts of anger and frustration, but I'm sort of "pretending" that everything is cool. I mean, if we're being real here - there's an element of fakeness about that, IMO.

Ugh. What if I put it this way: Fe has nothing to do with your own feelings. Suppressing your 'real' feelings doesn't mean you're using Fe. You can suppress your feelings and not use Fe. Or you can express them, and not use Fe, or use Fe either way. It's independent.

The 'fakeness' has to do with suppressing your feelings, but Fe is just a substitute, it's not because of Fe that you're suppressing them.

For your example, you could express your concerns about their tardiness in the form of a lighthearted joke - that'd be filtering it through Fe without being 'fake'.

 

[Pan-en-theist]

Amazingdatagirl, the new typology (Beebe 8 Processes) calls the auxiliary the good parent. So paternalism, maternalism is an unavoidable consequence. Inklings of a self and development of the self's potential are mysterious: probably both parties are involved. It's not one side dominating the other. There is ongoing listening and sharing. The counseling process, to my mind, is democratic. I intuit a kind of crisp
distinction-making on your part. Am I mistaken?

 

[jixmixfix]

Oooo...I go to defend Fe and wouldn't you know I'd invoke an INTP's shadow/anima. Now, we're getting somewhere.
My Ni experiment of championing Fe worked. I went fishing and I caught a fish. An ISTP, another thinker, started this thread.
We're doing shadow therapy.

No therapy here, you're not that special.

 

[amazingdatagirl]

Oooo...I go to defend Fe and wouldn't you know I'd invoke an INTP's shadow/anima. Now, we're getting somewhere.
My Ni experiment of championing Fe worked. I went fishing and I caught a fish.

Good catch.

@Pan-en-theist goes to the heart of the discussion (although he has Ni-shifted the context to preferred Fe vs. inferior Fe). Worldview dominant types (Ni and Si) believe that their personal vision is true not only for themselves but for society as a whole.

I intuit a kind of crisp distinction-making on your part. Am I mistaken?

<= Ti dominant

 

[Pan-en-theist]

Thank you, onemoretime. When Fe occupies the shadow or anima or fourth position in the I..TP's personality, it's so primitive and volatile and "touchy". Do you know the
type metaphor of the Dominant as the captain at the helm of a ship, the Auxiliary as the crew, the Tertiary as the sailor watching the captain from the railing but also watching the Shadow, who is in a small boat tied to the large vessel and angrily trying to row in the opposite direction, waiting for the captain to lose focus? Shadow work is so difficult.

 

[onemoretime]

Ugh. What if I put it this way: Fe has nothing to do with your own feelings. Suppressing your 'real' feelings doesn't mean you're using Fe. You can suppress your feelings and not use Fe. Or you can express them, and not use Fe, or use Fe either way. It's independent.

The 'fakeness' has to do with suppressing your feelings, but Fe is just a substitute, it's not because of Fe that you're suppressing them.

For your example, you could express your concerns in the form of a lighthearted joke - that'd be filtering it through Fe without being 'fake'.

Exactly. It's prioritization in evaluation. "I'm devastated by the tragedy, but as long as everyone feels good, things can't be so bad" is a perspective that favors Fe. "Everyone's so calm, but I can't shake this nagging feeling that something is terribly wrong here" is a perspective that favors Fi.

Fe adopts the external environment as the definitive means of evaluating the situation. Fi focuses upon the internal resonance of the situation as definitive. Both see the other perspective as defective or silly, because to do so is to focus on trivialities instead of what's "really important."

 

[INTPness]

Ugh.

LOL. Why are you "ugh-ing" me? I hold no resentment toward you. I'm just discussing with you and hopefully we're both learning from each other in the process.

What if I put it this way: Fe has nothing to do with your own feelings. Suppressing your 'real' feelings doesn't mean you're using Fe. You can suppress your feelings and not use Fe. Or you can express them, and not use Fe, or use Fe either way. It's independent.

The 'fakeness' has to do with suppressing your feelings, but Fe is just a substitute, it's not because of Fe that you're suppressing them.

For your example, you could express your concerns about their tardiness in the form of a lighthearted joke - that'd be filtering it through Fe without being 'fake'.

I see what you're saying. I can only speak from my own personal experience. Your Fe experience will be different from mine. When I'm really angry with someone (or insert other thought/emotion) and I surpress it and they say, "How are you?" And I say, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I'm wonderfuuuuuuuuuuulllll! How have yoooouuuuuu been? Oh yes, it's such a lovely day outside, yes and you look fantastic. Have you lost weight? And what a nice outfit you're wearing!" (I exaggerate for emphasis, but I have seen Fe users do it to that extent) - to me, in my own experience, in my own self-analysis, if I'm honest with myself, I recognize it as a sort of "fake front". Cuz honestly, in that moment, I don't really give a flying rip how much weight they've lost - I'm unhappy because they screwed me over and wasted my time. So, I'm essentially putting up a fake Fe-front. The Fe front has a certain fakeness to it. I'm faking the funk, if you will.

Another thing I've seen with Fe is where it will go, "Ohhhhhhh, you look wonnnnnnnnnnderfuuuuuuulll!!" And then 2 days later it will go, "That tramp thinks she is sooooooo hot!" LOL. It's like, "OK, so you were just faking the funk again when you told her she looked wonderful!"

I don't know - I'm just trying to be honest in that I see an element of fakeness in my own Fe. I'm not ripping on others - I'm saying I see it in my ownself sometimes and I don't like that part of it. I like many things about Fe - but that part I don't like. So, people can go ahead and call me "the unhealthy version" if they want and say, "I'm a healthy Fe user and INTPness obviousy isn't", but I'm just simply trying to keep it real here.

 

[Resonance]

LOL. Why are you "ugh-ing" me? I hold no resentment toward you. I'm just discussing with you and hopefully we're both learning from each other in the process.



I see what you're saying. I can only speak from my own personal experience. Your Fe experience will be different from mine. When I'm really angry with someone (or insert other thought/emotion) and I surpress it and they say, "How are you?" And I say, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I'm wonderfuuuuuuuuuuulllll! How have yoooouuuuuu been? Oh yes, it's such a lovely day outside, yes and you look fantastic. Have you lost weight? And what a nice outfit you're wearing!" (I exaggerate for emphasis, but I have seen Fe users do it to that extent) - to me, in my own experience, in my own self-analysis, if I'm honest with myself, I recognize it as a sort of "fake front". Cuz honestly, in that moment, I don't really give a flying rip how much weight they've lost - I'm unhappy because they screwed me over and wasted my time. So, I'm essentially putting up a fake Fe-front. The Fe front has a certain fakeness to it. I'm faking the funk, if you will.

Another thing I've seen with Fe is where it will go, "Ohhhhhhh, you look wonnnnnnnnnnderfuuuuuuulll!!" And then 2 days later it will go, "That tramp thinks she is sooooooo hot!" LOL. It's like, "OK, so you were just faking the funk again when you told her she looked wonderful!"

I don't know - I'm just trying to be honest in that I see an element of fakeness in my own Fe. I'm not ripping on others - I'm saying I see it in my ownself sometimes and I don't like that part of it. I like many things about Fe - but that part I don't like. So, people can go ahead and call me "the unhealthy version" if they want and say, "I'm a healthy Fe user and INTPness obviousy isn't", but I'm just simply trying to keep it real here.

The fake part isn't Fe, though. Fe is just 'being nice'. The fact that it doesn't mesh with your internal experience doesn't make it fake. What's fake is that you don't actually want to be nice. So you're being dishonest with yourself by using Fe when you really want to be using Ti and pointing out everything that's wrong with what they did. That's not an attribute of the function itself, it's a problem with how you are resolving which function to use.

As for your appearance example, Fe is dependent on context. If it makes the 'tramp' feel better to be praised on her appearance, that's what Fe does. If it makes someone else feel better to put her down, that's what Fe will do. The intention in both cases is to boost the other person's self-image - there's no inconsistency in those two actions. You only start to see inconsistencies when you break down the semantic content of it and notice that they're basically saying the opposite thing in both cases - that's a Ti process.

 

[cascadeco]

Would it be accurate to say that you frame the convo one-on-one you have with a person in an attempt to empathize with them and help them out within Fe-social niceties? You'll still make sure it's all about them (where NeFi-users are known to be more likely to interject and volunteer similar experiences in order to relate), so that you don't steal their spotlight, you ask them how they are, you go through the steps of social appropriateness to see if they're open to even wanting to discuss this with you, before you get to the core, you give them a reality check and try to stabilize their perspective by gently reminding them that the world isn't all about them and that it's not out to get them, etc etc.

Does that at all ring true?

I think it's mostly true... I've just never really understood the emphasis on 'social niceties', as related to myself, because I don't view myself or my motivations in that light, or my being overly concerned with that - if you're talking specific rules or such. But it's possible others view me in that way and would ascribe that to me. It's also possible that this is more dependent on the type itself (i.e. Fe with Si, rather than Fe with Ni), as I think Ni with Fe makes things much more individualized, rather than hard and fast specific rules that must be followed in all situations.

But anyway, it's true that it IS all about them, and I/my feelings have nothing to do with any of it. My own feelings/views might have absolutely no bearing on the other persons' feelings or situation. Were I in their situation, I might react very differently, or view things very differently. So my own experience may not have any relevance whatsoever. After all, their personality is different; as such, right off the bat, they might start saying all sorts of things that I personally can't identify with - in terms of their perceptions/reactions, maybe. So yeah, they're on center stage, and I would try to learn all I can about why they think/feel what they're feeling... often they just start talking of their own accord and the story unfolds and they'll talk for 10 or 20+ minutes without my having to ask much of anything. I just learn from what they say.

As I said earlier, I tend to be hesitant to give advice, partly because we may operate quite differently. The less I know of the situation/person, the more generic/all-encompassing any words I have might be; the more I know about who THEY are, the more individually tailored any words I have might be.

As for when *I* start talking/sharing? It typically needs to be prompted by the other person, with the other person showing interest - asking questions of me - because that indicates that the other person actually WANTS to know more of me. I've never been one to voluntarily start talking about myself.. because I need indication that the other person actually wants to hear me talk. So as such.. it's amazing... it's why I've spent most of my life just listening. People rarely ask me questions, so no one really ends up knowing much of anything about me. This is arguably half my fault, though; I'm not blaming anyone.

So I've started to learn the value of voluntarily sharing/disclosing, as a means of creating connections, as I've learned a lot of this does fall on me in the end and many/most people actually don't ask questions and are content talking about themselves. And to be fair, I'm generally happy not talking about myself... it's just interesting to me, that's all. So my instinct is to wait for a prompt; since that doesn't often happen, I've learned to start voluntarily sharing. Maybe this equates to your 'social nicety'? Looking for indications from the other person that I'm 'welcome' to start sharing? In the end it's very very dependent on all of the feedback/discussion/facial expressions/questions the other person presents. As you say, they are in the spotlight; not I. And yes, eventually, my feedback might be of the vein of offering different perspectives. I'm not on a mission though to impose my views on others (and that's not even possible.. as I said earlier, people have to want to do or believe or think whatever they're doing of their own volition; you can't force people to think/do/believe something).

 

[jixmixfix]

The way I see it Fe dom users are often good at exaggerating their Fe while someone who is more Ti dom may have alot of trouble doing that. Fe isn't faked in the Fe user when that person is legitimate and is showing their "Fe" in a healthy manner. However If the Fe dom user is having a bad day or has ulterior motives they defiantly have that ability to use their Fe in a "fake" manner. This is why Fe users can come across as "fake" because they are quite good at using their Fe even for negative reasons.

 

[Resonance]

The way I see it Fe dom users are often good at exaggerating their Fe while someone who is more Ti dom may have alot of trouble doing that. Fe isn't faked in the Fe user when that person is legitimate and is showing their "Fe" in a healthy manner. However If the Fe dom user is having a bad day or has ulterior motives they defiantly have that ability to use their Fe in a "fake" manner. This is why Fe users can come across as "fake" because they are quite good at using their Fe.

What is it 'faking'? Fe isn't about what's happening internally. If I make a violin that looks like a Stradivarius, is it a 'fake violin'? No, it still works like a violin and can play very beautiful music. Is it a 'fake Stradivarius'? Only if I put a label on it or tell people that it's a real one.

Fe's not faking anything, even when it's not representing your internal state, because it's not meant to.