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  1. #261

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    I disagree with Resonance's assertion that Fe should not be expected to be taken as an indication of one's internal state.

    When one professes an opinion, are they not professing the content of their internal state?

    What is Fe? It is the outward expression of an opinion (sweet talking, as in INTPNess's example, conveying he feels fine about people showing up late when he's really mad about them doing so, etc). I understand that Fe's purpose or intention/motivation/whatever is social harmony... but to say people should understand that what opinion they are professing is NOT HOW THEY ACTUALLY FEEL THEMSELVES, EVER [and can even run completely opposite(?!)]? Nonsense.

    In this way, Fe, because it is NOT a reflection of one's inner state, -when it professes to be- (<- key), is fake.

    But I'm not saying only Fe is fake. Any human can be fake. And being fake is furthermore just a fact of life, that is not always bad. Just defining the action of professing an opinion that you do not actually hold as "fakeness." I contend Fe is fake if you define Fe as "espousing an opinion [or stance] designed to promote social harmony even when your internal opinion [or stance] on something may be contradictory"... which is what seems to be what is being said (may be misunderstanding, disregard and sorry if so).

    Disclaimer: I don't hate Fe. Also, my use of "is" and "can be" is a bit mixed in this post. I don't mean Fe is always fake, but I don't feel like figuring the proper wording to make "can be" work in the relevant sentences.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    hahaha

  3. #263
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crack View Post
    I disagree with Resonance's assertion that Fe should not be expected to be taken as an indication of one's internal state.

    When one professes an opinion, are they not professing the content of their internal state?

    What is Fe? It is the outward expression of an opinion (sweet talking, as in INTPNess's example, conveying he feels fine about people showing up late when he's really mad about them doing so, etc). I understand that Fe's purpose or intention/motivation/whatever is social harmony... but to say people should understand that what opinion they are professing is NOT HOW THEY ACTUALLY FEEL THEMSELVES, EVER [and can even run completely opposite(?!)]? Nonsense.

    In this way, Fe, because it is NOT a reflection of one's inner state, -when it professes to be- (<- key), is fake.
    You're still not getting it.

    Part of their internal state may feel crappy. At the same time, a greater part of their internal state feels better for upholding social harmony. When someone's sweet talking, it's not out of being "fake," it's because even if that person's upset at their tardiness, they feel better by keeping the peace around them. THAT's why it's genuine.

    But I'm not saying only Fe is fake. Any human can be fake. And being fake is furthermore just a fact of life, that is not always bad. Just defining the action of professing an opinion that you do not actually hold as "fakeness." I contend Fe is fake if you define Fe as "espousing an opinion [or stance] designed to promote social harmony even when your internal opinion [or stance] on something may be contradictory"... which is what seems to be what is being said (may be misunderstanding, disregard and sorry if so).
    I contend that it's very presumptuous of you to cast judgment on someone else's internal cognition, when you show little inclination to listen to their perspective, never mind consider that your understanding of the subject may be inaccurate or deficient.

  4. #264
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Part of their internal state may feel crappy. At the same time, a greater part of their internal state feels better for upholding social harmony. When someone's sweet talking, it's not out of being "fake," it's because even if that person's upset at their tardiness, they feel better by keeping the peace around them. THAT's why it's genuine.
    Very true. The part of the internal state that seems incongruent with their feeling is simply NOT their feeling-judgment (it's their emotions or perceptions). Their emotional awareness is more likely dealt with via Pi.

    The concept of judging based on feeling in an extroverted manner is that feeling stems from the object, and that feeling is very real. The personal feeling IS what the object asks for in terms of harmony (that object being another person or even just a general people-related goal). Fe is not about the internal state - so how can it be true to it? That's not its realm; it's about recognizing the value of things outside of the internal state.

    Fi, being the opposite, has the downside of not adjusting to the object, resisting it even, meaning moodiness can prevail even when circumstances are good. This is because it IS about the internal state, and the internal state only.

    Both are tempered by their P function, so that each individual can be aware of both their inner state & outer reactions. FJs will be more aware of their internal state through Pi, not via their value judgments. This is just hard for Ps to grasp (Ji + Pe types) because it's so different from how their mind is oriented, and I'm sure Js find it hard to grasp the way P way of thinking & relating to objects & understanding yourself.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #265
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    It's hard to understand why someone would value social order and harmony higher than their own internal state, the way I come to see it the persons internal feelings should matter more than what is going on around them externally. When a house is built it is built for the ground up from it's most basic foundation. The Fe user stems their internal feelings through their external affairs.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Both are tempered by their P function, so that each individual can be aware of both their inner state & outer reactions. FJs will be more aware of their internal state through Pi, not via their value judgments. This is just hard for Ps to grasp (Ji + Pe types) because it's so different from how their mind is oriented, and I'm sure Js find it hard to grasp the way P way of thinking & relating to objects & understanding yourself.
    That is really how I think I began seeings things when I started looking at Fi/Fe with Ne/Ni. Everything started looking very inter-related and similar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Very true. The concept of judging based on feeling in an extroverted manner is that feeling stems from the object, and that feeling is very real. The personal feeling IS what the object asks for in terms of harmony (that object being another person or even just a general people-related goal). Fe is not about the internal state - so how can it be true to it? That's not its realm; it's about recognizing the value of things outside of the internal state.
    It's because there is internal satisfaction with maintaining composure, even when there is a coexisting internal conflict. It's not that the person isn't true to their internal state, it's that the internal state has limited relevance to their sense of personal truth. The external is real, and the internal self-delusion.

    Fi, being the opposite, has the downside of not adjusting to the object, resisting it even, meaning moodiness can prevail even when circumstances are good. This is because it IS about the internal state, and the internal state only.
    It's because truth is not to be found in the external. The external is a false image, and the internal is what is true.

  8. #268
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    It's hard to understand why someone would value social order and harmony higher than their own internal state, the way I come to see it the persons internal feelings should matter more than what is going on around them externally. When a house is built it is built for the ground up from it's most basic foundation. The Fe user stems their internal feelings through their external affairs.
    Yes, but their judgment of those external affairs are rooted in their internal perceptions. How they judge a situation is very much influenced by how they view it, and that view is quite personal.

    I agree though.....it's odd to me as a P type too, and as an introvert (all the E functions sound "shallow" to me).
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    It's hard to understand why someone would value social order and harmony higher than their own internal state, the way I come to see it the persons internal feelings should matter more than what is going on around them externally. When a house is built it is built for the ground up from it's most basic foundation. The Fe user stems their internal feelings through their external affairs.
    To live, one must eat. Nourishment comes from outside. No amount of concentration on one's hunger will leave a person well-fed.

  10. #270
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    It's because there is internal satisfaction with maintaining composure, even when there is a coexisting internal conflict. It's not that the person isn't true to their internal state, it's that the internal state has limited relevance to their sense of personal truth. The external is real, and the internal self-delusion.

    It's because truth is not to be found in the external. The external is a false image, and the internal is what is true.
    Yes, and I've read (quoted in my first post here) that Fe types can be unaware even of the incongruence of their internal state & the external, adjusting their feelings to the external, which represents the truth to them, but unknowingly giving off signs of their internal state. I think the internal state does have weight with how they view the external at times though, as even evidenced by how it affects them at times without their even realizing it.

    Anyhow, Fi types are said to rarely be unaware of incongruence with the external & internal because their feelings are anchored by the internal world, & as you say, this is because it is viewed to be the "truth".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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