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  1. #201
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    No, they're feeling both - the internal emotion, and the desire to maintain harmony and order. For them, the feeling of desire to maintain harmony and order is more important than the particular internal emotion. They're being true to themselves.
    OK, I can get on board with that. Thanks to all the Fe users for shedding further light on this for me. If anything, this makes me feel more OK when I employ Fe in these situations. Maybe I shouldn't feel like I'm being fake and maybe I shouldn't beat myself up about it as much. To me personally, it does feel fake sometimes (within myelf).

    And the really hard part I have with it is that I've also seen Fe-doms (multiple) do REALLY fake things. Like portray an image of themselves and their family and their households that is in huge contradiction to what is actually going on inside the home/family. On the outside it is very "oh yes, everything is great. My husband is doing really good at work, kids are smart, we just bought a new patio set and we might get a new car soon! Yay!" And inside (reality), it's this: Husband and wife fighting like crazy (at each other's throats), kids are having HUGE problems at school, there was no money to purchase the new patio set/new car, but they did it anyways. Fighting, chaos. Then, the next day when talking to the neighbors, same thing: Oh yeah, everything is good. We're so happy. What???????? To me, that seems fake. It feels fake. And I see it often in Fe-doms. They create an image of everything being really wonderful, when sometimes it's just not true.

    But, I don't want to argue with you guys further. I do appreciate the constructive conversation. These have just been some of my own experiences and observations with my own Fe and other Fe doms.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    You can also look at it in the sense that they are not being true to themselves because they are trying to create harmony and order in others and not themselves.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I see what you're saying. I can only speak from my own personal experience. Your Fe experience will be different from mine. When I'm really angry with someone (or insert other thought/emotion) and I surpress it and they say, "How are you?" And I say, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I'm wonderfuuuuuuuuuuulllll! How have yoooouuuuuu been? Oh yes, it's such a lovely day outside, yes and you look fantastic. Have you lost weight? And what a nice outfit you're wearing!" (I exaggerate for emphasis, but I have seen Fe users do it to that extent) - to me, in my own experience, in my own self-analysis, if I'm honest with myself, I recognize it as a sort of "fake front". Cuz honestly, in that moment, I don't really give a flying rip how much weight they've lost - I'm unhappy because they screwed me over and wasted my time. So, I'm essentially putting up a fake Fe-front. The Fe front has a certain fakeness to it. I'm faking the funk, if you will.

    Another thing I've seen with Fe is where it will go, "Ohhhhhhh, you look wonnnnnnnnnnderfuuuuuuulll!!" And then 2 days later it will go, "That tramp thinks she is sooooooo hot!" LOL. It's like, "OK, so you were just faking the funk again when you told her she looked wonderful!"

    I don't know - I'm just trying to be honest in that I see an element of fakeness in my own Fe. I'm not ripping on others - I'm saying I see it in my ownself sometimes and I don't like that part of it. I like many things about Fe - but that part I don't like. So, people can go ahead and call me "the unhealthy version" if they want and say, "I'm a healthy Fe user and INTPness obviousy isn't", but I'm just simply trying to keep it real here.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    How about this? How about the Fe-dom who always wants to portray a really good image to their neighbors (e.g., the "image" that my marriage is perfect, my husband makes a lot of money, our family has everything together, my kids are angels, we have no problems, etc.). I've seen this more than once in Fe-doms and, frankly, it's quite fake. It's fake because I can see how hard they try to portray this image, but in reality, it's a facade - it's a mirage - and you see the truth behind it that sometimes doesn't match up with what they are portraying.

    So, I maintain that Fe *can be* fake at times.
    And these.

    Well played Ti. Well played.

  3. #203
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    They create an image of everything being really wonderful, when sometimes it's just not true.
    The thing is, you're looking at it from a 'Ti' perspective. The things they say don't match up logically with what's really happening in their lives. But that's completely beside the point. What they are really saying is "I don't want you to worry about us, don't want to burden you with our problems, I like how lighthearted our conversations are because it's an escape from the hell-hole that is my personal life."

    It's like What a Wonderful World:
    I see friends shakin' hands, sayin' "How do you do?"
    They're really saying "I love you"
    The semantic content is irrelevant, it's the emotional content that is meaningful to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    You can also look at it in the sense that they are not being true to themselves because they are trying to create harmony and order in others and not themselves.
    How does that make any sense at all? Is there some kind of unwritten rule that you're not allowed to help people unless you have no needs of your own?
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  4. #204
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    We've talked about the endearing qualities of Fe, the amity, affiliation and bonding. Does Fe anger and discord have any value?
    Anger in the Fe mode is not inherently destructive, is it? I bring this up, because INTPs I have known get uncomfortable around
    Fe anger. Yes, they want to talk about the "phoniness" of job interviews and being nice in social contexts, but Fe is a richly textured
    function, that includes anger and moral righteousness. INFJs, help me out here, what are some other less well known attributes
    of Fe other than social tact, which gets all the typology attention. Perhaps an ENFJ or ESFJ can really enlighten us.
    We must revere nothing if reverence means rigidity, paralysis of inquiry.
    We must revere everything that sincere men revere, if reverence means
    respect made mobile by curiosity and flexible by modesty.

    Charles Hartshorne, Beyond Humanism:
    Towards a Philosophy of Nature

  5. #205
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pan-en-theist View Post
    We've talked about the endearing qualities of Fe, the amity, affiliation and bonding. Does Fe anger and discord have any value?
    Anger in the Fe mode is not inherently destructive, is it? I bring this up, because INTPs I have known get uncomfortable around
    Fe anger. Yes, they want to talk about the "phoniness" of job interviews and being nice in social contexts, but Fe is a richly textured
    function, that includes anger and moral righteousness. INFJs, help me out here, what are some other less well known attributes
    of Fe other than social tact, which gets all the typology attention. Perhaps an ENFJ or ESFJ can really enlighten us.
    Anger in the Fe mode is a shared experience. Rabble-rousing, mob mentality, righteous zeal - that's Fe anger. It's impersonal, in the sense that it's not coming from inside one person but from a group. "I am punishing you not because I am angry with you, but because you deserve it."
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  6. #206
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    To discuss Fe. We could just as easily start a thread on the negatives of Ne or Te or Ti, or any of the other functions. I'll leave that to you if you'd like to do that. I see nothing wrong in discussing and learning about Fe. It's through discussion that we learn. That is the point of all of these threads and this entire forum, I would assume.
    Yeah, I get that, and I'm all about discussing Fe. But the title of the thread, and nature of it, wasn't initially to 'discuss Fe'. It was to propose how Fe is somehow, by essence of what it is, 'fake'/manipulative. As I said in my first post, yes, it CAN be. Just like any type/function out there.

    There seem to be those though who want to place Fe in a more-fake/manipulative-than-any-other-function category, as if it's somehow unique out of all the other functions... and that's were I disagree.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #207
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah, I get that, and I'm all about discussing Fe. But the title of the thread, and nature of it, wasn't initially to 'discuss Fe'. It was to propose how Fe is somehow, by essence of what it is, 'fake'/manipulative. As I said in my first post, yes, it CAN be. Just like any type/function out there.
    To even suggest that it can be implies that it has some essence which can be contravened by its use. All I have seen so far are examples of situations where one is using Fe instead of another function they'd rather be using - not where Fe itself is being 'fake'.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  8. #208
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    To even suggest that it can be implies that it has some essence which can be contravened by its use. All I have seen so far are examples of situations where one is using Fe instead of another function they'd rather be using - not where Fe itself is being 'fake'.
    To clarify, in my initial post I was emphasizing the Manipulative element, because yeah, each and every one of us can try to manipulate in a variety of ways if we choose to - I didn't touch on the 'Fake' element. And.. others have been covering those points pretty well anyway.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #209
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    To clarify, in my initial post I was emphasizing the Manipulative element, because yeah, each and every one of us can try to manipulate in a variety of ways if we choose to - I didn't touch on the 'Fake' element. And.. others have been covering those points pretty well anyway.
    This is good. This shows a lot of self-reflection. Like, "hey, if I'm honest with myself, I've used it to manipulate before." That's all I was trying to say myself in all of this. Instead of trying to say, "Oh no, never used Fe for anything negative. Nope. Not me. Would never do that." No, if we're real, these things happen.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #210
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    You can also look at it in the sense that they are not being true to themselves because they are trying to create harmony and order in others and not themselves.
    That would make no sense, because they favor Fe over Fi. Preferring to create harmony and order in others is an integral part of who they are. That preference is the core truth of their personality, not the internal emotion. Rectifying internal disorder may be important, but there are even more important things to do. Do you see what I am saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    OK, I can get on board with that. Thanks to all the Fe users for shedding further light on this for me. If anything, this makes me feel more OK when I employ Fe in these situations. Maybe I shouldn't feel like I'm being fake and maybe I shouldn't beat myself up about it as much. To me personally, it does feel fake sometimes (within myelf).
    As well it should - it runs in the opposite direction of what your Ti-based ego considers your true self.

    And the really hard part I have with it is that I've also seen Fe-doms (multiple) do REALLY fake things. Like portray an image of themselves and their family and their households that is in huge contradiction to what is actually going on inside the home/family. On the outside it is very "oh yes, everything is great. My husband is doing really good at work, kids are smart, we just bought a new patio set and we might get a new car soon! Yay!" And inside (reality), it's this: Husband and wife fighting like crazy (at each other's throats), kids are having HUGE problems at school, there was no money to purchase the new patio set/new car, but they did it anyways. Fighting, chaos. Then, the next day when talking to the neighbors, same thing: Oh yeah, everything is good. We're so happy. What???????? To me, that seems fake. It feels fake. And I see it often in Fe-doms. They create an image of everything being really wonderful, when sometimes it's just not true.
    Hmm. Hate to be rude, but ever considered that all of that other stuff is none of your business? Everyone's family has got their own crap. However, for many people, that sort of thing stays within the family. You don't have any inherent right to hear about it, nor do they have any inherent duty to inform you of it. In their minds, they truly feel that it's better to portray a stable image, rather than burden others with their troubles.

    The problem is that you're assuming that they're doing this for some nefarious purpose, which is why people are pointing out that this has a lot to do with Fe being your inferior function.

    But, I don't want to argue with you guys further. I do appreciate the constructive conversation. These have just been some of my own experiences and observations with my own Fe and other Fe doms.
    As long as you recognize that your opinion has solely to do with how you yourself experience the function, and nothing to do with how others may experience that function, then I think we understand one another.

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