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  1. #171
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    Amazingdatagirl, the new typology (Beebe 8 Processes) calls the auxiliary the good parent. So paternalism, maternalism is an unavoidable consequence. Inklings of a self and development of the self's potential are mysterious: probably both parties are involved. It's not one side dominating the other. There is ongoing listening and sharing. The counseling process, to my mind, is democratic. I intuit a kind of crisp
    distinction-making on your part. Am I mistaken?
    We must revere nothing if reverence means rigidity, paralysis of inquiry.
    We must revere everything that sincere men revere, if reverence means
    respect made mobile by curiosity and flexible by modesty.

    Charles Hartshorne, Beyond Humanism:
    Towards a Philosophy of Nature

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pan-en-theist View Post
    Oooo...I go to defend Fe and wouldn't you know I'd invoke an INTP's shadow/anima. Now, we're getting somewhere.
    My Ni experiment of championing Fe worked. I went fishing and I caught a fish. An ISTP, another thinker, started this thread.
    We're doing shadow therapy.
    No therapy here, you're not that special.

  3. #173
    Member amazingdatagirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pan-en-theist View Post
    Oooo...I go to defend Fe and wouldn't you know I'd invoke an INTP's shadow/anima. Now, we're getting somewhere.
    My Ni experiment of championing Fe worked. I went fishing and I caught a fish.
    Good catch.

    @Pan-en-theist goes to the heart of the discussion (although he has Ni-shifted the context to preferred Fe vs. inferior Fe). Worldview dominant types (Ni and Si) believe that their personal vision is true not only for themselves but for society as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pan-en-theist View Post
    I intuit a kind of crisp distinction-making on your part. Am I mistaken?
    <= Ti dominant

  4. #174
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    Thank you, onemoretime. When Fe occupies the shadow or anima or fourth position in the I..TP's personality, it's so primitive and volatile and "touchy". Do you know the
    type metaphor of the Dominant as the captain at the helm of a ship, the Auxiliary as the crew, the Tertiary as the sailor watching the captain from the railing but also watching the Shadow, who is in a small boat tied to the large vessel and angrily trying to row in the opposite direction, waiting for the captain to lose focus? Shadow work is so difficult.
    We must revere nothing if reverence means rigidity, paralysis of inquiry.
    We must revere everything that sincere men revere, if reverence means
    respect made mobile by curiosity and flexible by modesty.

    Charles Hartshorne, Beyond Humanism:
    Towards a Philosophy of Nature

  5. #175
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    Ugh. What if I put it this way: Fe has nothing to do with your own feelings. Suppressing your 'real' feelings doesn't mean you're using Fe. You can suppress your feelings and not use Fe. Or you can express them, and not use Fe, or use Fe either way. It's independent.

    The 'fakeness' has to do with suppressing your feelings, but Fe is just a substitute, it's not because of Fe that you're suppressing them.

    For your example, you could express your concerns in the form of a lighthearted joke - that'd be filtering it through Fe without being 'fake'.
    Exactly. It's prioritization in evaluation. "I'm devastated by the tragedy, but as long as everyone feels good, things can't be so bad" is a perspective that favors Fe. "Everyone's so calm, but I can't shake this nagging feeling that something is terribly wrong here" is a perspective that favors Fi.

    Fe adopts the external environment as the definitive means of evaluating the situation. Fi focuses upon the internal resonance of the situation as definitive. Both see the other perspective as defective or silly, because to do so is to focus on trivialities instead of what's "really important."

  6. #176
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    Ugh.
    LOL. Why are you "ugh-ing" me? I hold no resentment toward you. I'm just discussing with you and hopefully we're both learning from each other in the process.

    What if I put it this way: Fe has nothing to do with your own feelings. Suppressing your 'real' feelings doesn't mean you're using Fe. You can suppress your feelings and not use Fe. Or you can express them, and not use Fe, or use Fe either way. It's independent.

    The 'fakeness' has to do with suppressing your feelings, but Fe is just a substitute, it's not because of Fe that you're suppressing them.

    For your example, you could express your concerns about their tardiness in the form of a lighthearted joke - that'd be filtering it through Fe without being 'fake'.
    I see what you're saying. I can only speak from my own personal experience. Your Fe experience will be different from mine. When I'm really angry with someone (or insert other thought/emotion) and I surpress it and they say, "How are you?" And I say, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I'm wonderfuuuuuuuuuuulllll! How have yoooouuuuuu been? Oh yes, it's such a lovely day outside, yes and you look fantastic. Have you lost weight? And what a nice outfit you're wearing!" (I exaggerate for emphasis, but I have seen Fe users do it to that extent) - to me, in my own experience, in my own self-analysis, if I'm honest with myself, I recognize it as a sort of "fake front". Cuz honestly, in that moment, I don't really give a flying rip how much weight they've lost - I'm unhappy because they screwed me over and wasted my time. So, I'm essentially putting up a fake Fe-front. The Fe front has a certain fakeness to it. I'm faking the funk, if you will.

    Another thing I've seen with Fe is where it will go, "Ohhhhhhh, you look wonnnnnnnnnnderfuuuuuuulll!!" And then 2 days later it will go, "That tramp thinks she is sooooooo hot!" LOL. It's like, "OK, so you were just faking the funk again when you told her she looked wonderful!"

    I don't know - I'm just trying to be honest in that I see an element of fakeness in my own Fe. I'm not ripping on others - I'm saying I see it in my ownself sometimes and I don't like that part of it. I like many things about Fe - but that part I don't like. So, people can go ahead and call me "the unhealthy version" if they want and say, "I'm a healthy Fe user and INTPness obviousy isn't", but I'm just simply trying to keep it real here.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #177
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    LOL. Why are you "ugh-ing" me? I hold no resentment toward you. I'm just discussing with you and hopefully we're both learning from each other in the process.



    I see what you're saying. I can only speak from my own personal experience. Your Fe experience will be different from mine. When I'm really angry with someone (or insert other thought/emotion) and I surpress it and they say, "How are you?" And I say, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I'm wonderfuuuuuuuuuuulllll! How have yoooouuuuuu been? Oh yes, it's such a lovely day outside, yes and you look fantastic. Have you lost weight? And what a nice outfit you're wearing!" (I exaggerate for emphasis, but I have seen Fe users do it to that extent) - to me, in my own experience, in my own self-analysis, if I'm honest with myself, I recognize it as a sort of "fake front". Cuz honestly, in that moment, I don't really give a flying rip how much weight they've lost - I'm unhappy because they screwed me over and wasted my time. So, I'm essentially putting up a fake Fe-front. The Fe front has a certain fakeness to it. I'm faking the funk, if you will.

    Another thing I've seen with Fe is where it will go, "Ohhhhhhh, you look wonnnnnnnnnnderfuuuuuuulll!!" And then 2 days later it will go, "That tramp thinks she is sooooooo hot!" LOL. It's like, "OK, so you were just faking the funk again when you told her she looked wonderful!"

    I don't know - I'm just trying to be honest in that I see an element of fakeness in my own Fe. I'm not ripping on others - I'm saying I see it in my ownself sometimes and I don't like that part of it. I like many things about Fe - but that part I don't like. So, people can go ahead and call me "the unhealthy version" if they want and say, "I'm a healthy Fe user and INTPness obviousy isn't", but I'm just simply trying to keep it real here.
    The fake part isn't Fe, though. Fe is just 'being nice'. The fact that it doesn't mesh with your internal experience doesn't make it fake. What's fake is that you don't actually want to be nice. So you're being dishonest with yourself by using Fe when you really want to be using Ti and pointing out everything that's wrong with what they did. That's not an attribute of the function itself, it's a problem with how you are resolving which function to use.

    As for your appearance example, Fe is dependent on context. If it makes the 'tramp' feel better to be praised on her appearance, that's what Fe does. If it makes someone else feel better to put her down, that's what Fe will do. The intention in both cases is to boost the other person's self-image - there's no inconsistency in those two actions. You only start to see inconsistencies when you break down the semantic content of it and notice that they're basically saying the opposite thing in both cases - that's a Ti process.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vala Faye View Post
    Would it be accurate to say that you frame the convo one-on-one you have with a person in an attempt to empathize with them and help them out within Fe-social niceties? You'll still make sure it's all about them (where NeFi-users are known to be more likely to interject and volunteer similar experiences in order to relate), so that you don't steal their spotlight, you ask them how they are, you go through the steps of social appropriateness to see if they're open to even wanting to discuss this with you, before you get to the core, you give them a reality check and try to stabilize their perspective by gently reminding them that the world isn't all about them and that it's not out to get them, etc etc.

    Does that at all ring true?
    I think it's mostly true... I've just never really understood the emphasis on 'social niceties', as related to myself, because I don't view myself or my motivations in that light, or my being overly concerned with that - if you're talking specific rules or such. But it's possible others view me in that way and would ascribe that to me. It's also possible that this is more dependent on the type itself (i.e. Fe with Si, rather than Fe with Ni), as I think Ni with Fe makes things much more individualized, rather than hard and fast specific rules that must be followed in all situations.

    But anyway, it's true that it IS all about them, and I/my feelings have nothing to do with any of it. My own feelings/views might have absolutely no bearing on the other persons' feelings or situation. Were I in their situation, I might react very differently, or view things very differently. So my own experience may not have any relevance whatsoever. After all, their personality is different; as such, right off the bat, they might start saying all sorts of things that I personally can't identify with - in terms of their perceptions/reactions, maybe. So yeah, they're on center stage, and I would try to learn all I can about why they think/feel what they're feeling... often they just start talking of their own accord and the story unfolds and they'll talk for 10 or 20+ minutes without my having to ask much of anything. I just learn from what they say.

    As I said earlier, I tend to be hesitant to give advice, partly because we may operate quite differently. The less I know of the situation/person, the more generic/all-encompassing any words I have might be; the more I know about who THEY are, the more individually tailored any words I have might be.

    As for when *I* start talking/sharing? It typically needs to be prompted by the other person, with the other person showing interest - asking questions of me - because that indicates that the other person actually WANTS to know more of me. I've never been one to voluntarily start talking about myself.. because I need indication that the other person actually wants to hear me talk. So as such.. it's amazing... it's why I've spent most of my life just listening. People rarely ask me questions, so no one really ends up knowing much of anything about me. This is arguably half my fault, though; I'm not blaming anyone.

    So I've started to learn the value of voluntarily sharing/disclosing, as a means of creating connections, as I've learned a lot of this does fall on me in the end and many/most people actually don't ask questions and are content talking about themselves. And to be fair, I'm generally happy not talking about myself... it's just interesting to me, that's all. So my instinct is to wait for a prompt; since that doesn't often happen, I've learned to start voluntarily sharing. Maybe this equates to your 'social nicety'? Looking for indications from the other person that I'm 'welcome' to start sharing? In the end it's very very dependent on all of the feedback/discussion/facial expressions/questions the other person presents. As you say, they are in the spotlight; not I. And yes, eventually, my feedback might be of the vein of offering different perspectives. I'm not on a mission though to impose my views on others (and that's not even possible.. as I said earlier, people have to want to do or believe or think whatever they're doing of their own volition; you can't force people to think/do/believe something).
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #179
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    The way I see it Fe dom users are often good at exaggerating their Fe while someone who is more Ti dom may have alot of trouble doing that. Fe isn't faked in the Fe user when that person is legitimate and is showing their "Fe" in a healthy manner. However If the Fe dom user is having a bad day or has ulterior motives they defiantly have that ability to use their Fe in a "fake" manner. This is why Fe users can come across as "fake" because they are quite good at using their Fe even for negative reasons.

  10. #180
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    The fake part isn't Fe, though. Fe is just 'being nice'. The fact that it doesn't mesh with your internal experience doesn't make it fake. What's fake is that you don't actually want to be nice. So you're being dishonest with yourself by using Fe when you really want to be using Ti and pointing out everything that's wrong with what they did. That's not an attribute of the function itself, it's a problem with how you are resolving which function to use.
    Are you implying that you've never interacted with someone that you very much dislike and "been nice" even though you didn't want to be nice at that moment? In other words, you "put on a nice face" for the evening and then when you got home you went, "Boy am I glad to be done with that person!"

    Or, a boss that you didn't particularly care for demanded that you do something you didn't want to do and you went "Oh, okay. No problem. Hee hee."

    You've never done those things? Or things like that?

    I guess I see your point. Fe is simply the "mechanism" we use to "be nice", so maybe it's not the Fe in and of itself that is fake - instead it's something in the person that causes them to "employ the Fe mechanism". Either way, when a person employs such strategies, the person themselves is being fake to some degree.

    And, yeah, I'd like to know. Am I the only one who has done those sort of things on occasion? Nobody else does that stuff from time to time??????? Hello? Anyone?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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