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  1. #141
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    It may be a timing issue... I think this came up in other threads a long while ago.

    I know I don't have an infinite supply of empathy/support, and I don't believe I'm as good at nurturing and handling the raw emotions... Fi is better at that I think... and after a fixed time I need to see movement/progression from the other person. I have the sense that Fi-er's eventually reach this limit too, but I think it's reached sooner by myself at least. The message may be the same, but being a J I am more closure-oriented, thus I may have more of an external need for movement and visible pregression/change than you might, and if the person is continuing to spin his wheels without finding a solution, then I might lose patience and won't want to hear about it anymore. These things are SO very situational, so it's hard to be general about it, but for example I might need to see someone working towards something after, say, 6 months, whereas maybe you could work with them for 2 years while they're still tackling the issue. I dunno, just one initial thought (and I made those numbers up ).
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  2. #142
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    As someone with Fi, that's how I see it.
    Everyone has Fi, and Fe. The error you're making is putting Fe as a counterpart to Fi. That's not accurate; it's more like Fe is a counterpart to Te. See?

    As an 'Fi type', does Ti seem 'fake' to you?
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by blankpages View Post
    People who prefer Ti or Fi can easily get annoyed with Fe and see it as "fake". I've come to respect it a lot more by seeing it as a reflection of genuine intentions, a genuine desire to affect the other people/the social environment in a certain way. That doesn't mean I never get annoyed with it, but I don't dismiss it like I used to.



    They often overlap, I think, even though on occasion they can clash and see each other as "missing the point". Same with Ti and Te.
    Couldn't have worded this better myself.

    I think too Vala... that the older we get, the more comfortable we get in ourselves and we are more easily able to express ourselves. I had the same response as you did to Casca's post.

    Casca:
    For inspiration, I might affirm them, but also encourage/challenge them to try something out, even if it might not work. Because I do believe that most people can do pretty much anything they put their mind to -- it's often just fear, or the unknown, that prevents them. But to at least try.. I might encourage that. Or might show them a different angle, even though they may not be receptive to it. I'll note that I know they may not be interested in checking it out. Basically I have no interest in forcing people into things -- because frankly I don't think that's possible. It has to be from them, from their own volition/awareness, that they WANT to do something. I might try to plant a seed, or encourage, or give various alternatives, and then that' about all I can do. Anything I say is tailored to what I know about them as a person, about their situation, about who they are and what might drive them. They can take it, or leave it. And if they leave it, what can I do? I'm not out there to create mini-versions of Me; I want people to be THEM. And if I don't have enough in common with them, or we're too at odds for a relationship, then it's not a relationship I'll develop.

    Also, just share what *I* think and such, not telling them they should think that. Because I really *don't* think they should think that. They're their own person after all. And if they happen to latch onto something I say that helps them out, that's awesome. If my own life/story/experiences provide raw material and they think well, if SHE can do it, I can do it.. then, that too.

    Commonalities? Well, if I meet someone who's super into the outdoors/wildlife, conversation/commonalities might be built upon that. If I meet someone who's an engineer, I might then talk about how I started out in engineering, and ask them about that. If I meet someone who's into psychology stuff, obviously convo might take a deeper turn right off the bat. If I'm with the engineer, I'm not going to start talking about shopping at Banana Republic. We're not building any commonalities/connection on that. And so on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    It may be a timing issue... I think this came up in other threads a long while ago.

    I know I don't have an infinite supply of empathy/support, and I don't believe I'm as good at nurturing and handling the raw emotions... Fi is better at that I think... and after a fixed time I need to see movement/progression from the other person. I have the sense that Fi-er's eventually reach this limit too, but I think it's reached sooner by myself at least. The message may be the same, but being a J I am more closure-oriented, thus I may have more of an external need for movement and visible pregression/change than you might, and if the person is continuing to spin his wheels without finding a solution, then I might lose patience and won't want to hear about it anymore. These things are SO very situational, so it's hard to be general about it, but for example I might need to see someone working towards something after, say, 6 months, whereas maybe you could work with them for 2 years while they're still tackling the issue. I dunno, just one initial thought (and I made those numbers up ).
    I operate very similiarly to you in the first post I quoted from you, Casca. For me, I have kind of grown into that, versus it being my initial instincts. When younger, I did listen for months and years on end to the same people with their same problems. Now, I have much less patience for it. If I don't see any sort of progression in them, and it just seems like they are "using" me to complain.... then I will start to use my Te skillz more, and eventually I will check out of the situation entirely.

    Your stuff about commonalities is how I operate as well with people I just meet. I try to make sure they are comfortable with me, plus I am genuinely interested in what makes them tick... So I will try to gently figure out something we can talk about and then get them going on a topic. This past weekend I had to go to a family function for the family my dad is marrying into. I knew about 5 people there out of the 30 that were there. Introvert nightmare at first. I ended up sitting next to one of the in-laws and discovered that he travels frequently. I got him talking about which countries he has visited, some of them were in common with ones I have been to, and the experiences we each had in these countries. Discovering these talking points is always a relief for me. Otherwise I feel like I can't break out my Ne (group is too large, and I am not a fan of calling undue attention to myself) and be my usual off the wall self... and Te is a bit too harsh... so I am stuck!

    Ok, I am done rambling for now. /Saturned Out.

  4. #144
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    We INFJs like to alter the perspective a bit. Here's something I read in Isabel's Gifts Differing( page 176) which I often think about>
    She says that EJs are "unable to see the individuality of persons and situations; they fall back on assumptions--prejudices, conventions,
    stereotyped attitudes and common misconceptions" UNLESS they learn to develop their introverted perceptive auxiliary. I believe this is
    a sound judgement in many respects. Now for Fe. When extreme E..FJs have not developed the auxiliary, they can build affiliations and bonds with others that overlook the others' unique natures and the unique situations that they are in. It seems dumb and myopic and yes, manipulative, to more perceptive types. Yet if the E..FJs can get off and reflect on the mistakes they have made or the crises they have created (using either Ni to consider the multiple perspectives involved or Si to gather the relevant facts involved and whether this mistake has a history), they can temper that judgemental outlook and improve their relations with others. Well-balanced (Dom & Aux in a dynamic interchange) E..FJs are the glue that holds our society together with sympathy and charm.
    We must revere nothing if reverence means rigidity, paralysis of inquiry.
    We must revere everything that sincere men revere, if reverence means
    respect made mobile by curiosity and flexible by modesty.

    Charles Hartshorne, Beyond Humanism:
    Towards a Philosophy of Nature

  5. #145
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    Everyone has Fi, and Fe. The error you're making is putting Fe as a counterpart to Fi. That's not accurate; it's more like Fe is a counterpart to Te. See?

    As an 'Fi type', does Ti seem 'fake' to you?
    Ti seems redundant and semantic
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    Everyone has Fi, and Fe. The error you're making is putting Fe as a counterpart to Fi. That's not accurate; it's more like Fe is a counterpart to Te. See?

    As an 'Fi type', does Ti seem 'fake' to you?
    That's not what I am doing. You missed my point. I'm done trying to explain.

  7. #147
    (blankpages) Xenon's Avatar
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    I'm sure anything anyone wants to know about the difference between Fe and Fi are described somewhere in that incredibly long and heated thread from last year.

    I don't much feel like wading through it right now (and being T-dom I may not have the best grasp on either anyway), but one thing that stands out in my mind is the emphasis Fi users seemed to place on intention and being "true to oneself", and the emphasis Fe users seemed to place on effect and results. This was actually a major factor for me in both becoming more sure than ever I'm not an Fi user, and in coming to accept that whole theory of how your preferred F and T functions are normally in opposite directions. I had been very skeptical of that previously.

  8. #148
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    That's not what I am doing. You missed my point. I'm done trying to explain.
    your point was that you don't get it, idk what you're trying to prove.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  9. #149
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    A further comment. We INFJs use Fe as an auxiliary in dealing with others. We care deeply about the welfare of others, but we see them as individuals. So unlike ENFJs with undeveloped auxiliaries, our concern for others is contingent upon whether the "beholden" has, first, inklings of a self, and ,second, whether he or she is interested in developing the self's potential. Correct me if I'm wrong, other INFJs, but I don't think our empathy is interested in social conformity and conventionality.
    When I empathize with another person, it's me-you, complete intimacy, no ulterior motives in getting you to be a better member of society. I think it's because our Ni Hero/Dominant is intensely individualistic.
    We must revere nothing if reverence means rigidity, paralysis of inquiry.
    We must revere everything that sincere men revere, if reverence means
    respect made mobile by curiosity and flexible by modesty.

    Charles Hartshorne, Beyond Humanism:
    Towards a Philosophy of Nature

  10. #150
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Couldn't have worded this better myself.

    I think too Vala... that the older we get, the more comfortable we get in ourselves and we are more easily able to express ourselves.

    ...... I had the same response as you did to Casca's post. I operate very similiarly to you in the first post I quoted from you, Casca. For me, I have kind of grown into that, versus it being my initial instincts.
    Well, not to pull the age card, but I'm almost 33, and I am pretty sure where I'm at now, in terms of how I process things and 'operate' is bit more finetuned/layered than it was at 23, and certainly as a teenager. So I think it can be harder as you grow older to sift through more of your instinctual responses (or even be aware of what those pure instinctual responses might have been, because the pure isn't so relevant anymore), vs. the more nuanced responses based on experience and just added years or changing perceptions (or whatever) - because the nuanced becomes the reality, and becomes you.

    It's kinda like... on these forums it might be more simplistic to try to speak of Cognitive functions as isolated things, but the reality is that when you throw a second function on top of that one, and then a third, and then a fourth, it becomes further nuanced so that the Bare-bones definition of the isolated function may not even be applicable at all to the resulting product/self... because the other functions end up adding to it/ modifying such that it's no longer as black&white as it was in its isolation. And the combo of functions changes the flavor dramatically in some ways - it's useless in some respects to compare an ISFJ to an ENFJ, for example, because the Fe is going to manifest in distinct ways, even if there are similarities/common themes as well.

    As such:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pan-en-theist
    Correct me if I'm wrong, other INFJs, but I don't think our empathy is interested in social conformity and conventionality.
    Agreed.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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