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  1. #121
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    So one is not allowed to share one's opinion of a discussion? Wow, just wow.

    I am not denying the negative aspects of Fe, but it seems you specifically mentions how NFJs are capable of abusing manipulations poorly, I thought I have a right to defend it based on NFJs P.O.V.

    Btw, what's mail-mailing? I seem to have troubles understanding your self-created obscure terms.
    you've missed my point. I am not against your defense of Fe, my point is that this is a thread pertaining to the negative aspects of Fe, which is why posts are made in criticism of Fe. in fact, I welcome your defense. useful debate requires valif input on both sides
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  2. #122
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    The question was "is Fe fake or manipulative"?

    It therefore seems more than reasonable that people should present arguments both for and against the idea of it being manipulative, including both negative AND positive aspects of the function...! I don't see that the thread was created specifically to elaborate on the negative aspects of Fe, although that is one aspect of the discussion.
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  3. #123
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Kind of fake.

    It would be hard to demonstrate Thinking without actually Thinking. There must be a degree of subjective judgement.

    Further, the thoughts organized by Ti are demonstrable in communication, at the very least. Albeit, they are local to the communicator. An act of demonstrative Fi or Ti neglects the subjective element.
    Exactly.
    Thank you, Ginkgo. :P

  4. #124
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Fe isn't "fake" ...it just influences and incidentally is influenced.
    perfect executive summary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Tangent:

    Do any Ti oriented people see Te as "fake"?
    Yes, actually, now that I think about it. I tend to see Te-style debaters as trying to prove or disprove a concept without actually understanding it, so to me it's 'fake' because they're just trying to come to a conclusion. They want me to tell/prove to them why they should accept it, whereas I want to show them what it is and why it's a useful thought-object so that they can draw that conclusion themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    exactly, that is usually manipulative.
    except, somehow, in the ways that I suggested?

    those are the kind of situations where it comes naturally to me.

    "Manipulating people" using deception or whatever, that's a lot more difficult and I suspect most Fe-users wouldn't bother trying.
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  5. #125
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Tangent:

    Do any Ti oriented people see Te as "fake"?
    I don't see Te as being fake at all. Actually, it's very real - at least relative to some of the other functions. A little bit like a bull in a china shop, but still - at least you know the bull is there - the bull isn't trying to hide.
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  6. #126
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    If you don't think Fe has at least some degree of fakeness in it, just wait until the next time you hear an INTP using his Fe and then ask him "OK, now tell me what you really think?"

    Example: If I have a 9am meeting with a group of people, and they make me wait 20 minutes when I have things to do, Ti isn't going to be very happy. But, when they finally call me into my appointment and they say, "So, how's it going?" I will respond with, "It's going good, thanks for asking. How are you guys?" That's Fe. I'm pissed inside, but I'm showing a friendly face.

    It's "real" because I genuinely do want to know how they are doing and I genuinely want to focus on the good things of the moment, rather than the bad things. I'd rather have these people as friends and respected colleagues than to not be their friends.

    It's "fake" because inside I'm really pissed that they made me wait and they have no regard for my time - but, I don't show that - I only show the Fe part.

    This stuff happens all day, every day. I see it as Fe "covering Ti's butt" and smoothing out Ti's rough edges - because Ti is unrelenting and extremely critical of inconsistencies - it notices everything. So, Fe smooths it out. I see my Fe as an asset in light of my Ti. But, yes, it does have an element of fakeness because it covers over what is going on underneath the surface sometimes.

    For an Fe-dom, this might not be true. Fe doesn't need to "cover" over anything because it's the lead function. In my case, Ti leads but sometimes Fe needs to be brought in to smooth over the situation - to cover for Ti's weakness or blind spot.
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  7. #127
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    If you don't think Fe has at least some degree of fakeness in it, just wait until the next time you hear an INTP using his Fe and then ask him "OK, now tell me what you really think?"

    Example: If I have a 9am meeting with a group of people, and they make me wait 20 minutes when I have things to do, Ti isn't going to be very happy. But, when they finally call me into my appointment and they say, "So, how's it going?" I will respond with, "It's going good, thanks for asking. How are you guys?" That's Fe. I'm pissed inside, but I'm showing a friendly face.

    It's "real" because I genuinely do want to know how they are doing and I genuinely want to focus on the good things of the moment, rather than the bad things. I'd rather have these people as friends and respected colleagues than to not be their friends.

    It's "fake" because inside I'm really pissed that they made me wait and they have no regard for my time - but, I don't show that - I only show the Fe part.

    This stuff happens all day, every day. I see it as Fe "covering Ti's butt" and smoothing out Ti's rough edges - because Ti is unrelenting and extremely critical of inconsistencies - it notices everything. So, Fe smooths it out. I see my Fe as an asset in light of my Ti. But, yes, it does have an element of fakeness because it covers over what is going on underneath the surface sometimes.

    For an Fe-dom, this might not be true. Fe doesn't need to "cover" over anything because it's the lead function. In my case, Ti leads but sometimes Fe needs to be brought in to smooth over the situation - to cover for Ti's weakness or blind spot.
    So basically what you're saying is "Fe is fake because it doesn't match the output of my other function [Ti]".

    That's a bit like saying oranges are fake because they don't look like bananas.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance View Post
    So basically what you're saying is "Fe is fake because it doesn't match the output of my other function [Ti]".

    That's a bit like saying oranges are fake because they don't look like bananas.
    No, what he is saying is that his real (ti) reaction is that he is annoyed, but he covers it up (fe) with being pleasant.

  9. #129
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I've already stated that ENFPs can be manipulative (I even admitted that I am manipulative), that being said, Fe by it's very nature is manipulative. appealing to someone else's emotions to get them to do something is manipulation
    LOL. Because you Fi-ers *never* appeal to others' emotions or emotionally manipulate. lol.

    Honestly.. I don't think I'll ever understand those who so strongly dislike any one function. It says way more about the hater than the hatee.
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  10. #130
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    And I can relate to some degree. Sometimes I am feeling extremely emotional (Fi), but the setting may not be appropriate for me to be emotional. So I cover it up with being stoic (Te).

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