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  1. #41
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Interesting description here. I may be looking at Fe-Fi differences all wrong, actually. (I would be delighted to be wrong in this instance! )

    Gotta think about this stuff.
    well i might not be totally correct, lol... that is just how i see Fe as i understand it manifest in the Fe-dominants i actually know... and what i've come to understand from talking with Fe dom/aux on the site. the two easy shorthand terms i use for Fi/Fe are "about me"/"about you" and "intrapersonal/interpersonal". the "about __" seems to me where a lot of each of the function's issues come from. like Fi can be really self-absorbed - not necessarily even with oneself, but with a self - it's not very good at considering synergistic effects between people - but Fe can have this weird problem of thinking that all your behavior is about someone else. like you're expressing anger because you're mad at them, when really you're expressing it because you're upset with yourself. or with the more stereotypical examples, like if you forget to send a birthday card, then it's about not caring about the birthday person, instead of just you have a terrible memory and lost your calendar. and then for intra/inter - Fi likes to delve into individual persons. the self is our proving ground, but we can do it with others, too. whereas Fe likes to explore the links between people. it's good at how to create or destroy distance between people, etc.

    so basically then the way i picture it is Fi looks at people from the inside out, while Fe looks at them from the outside in. Fi starts with "about me" and then from the perspective of "me" looks at everyone else. whereas Fe starts with the perspective of "about you" and then from that perspective looks at "me". which is why Fe doms can understand others so well... because they've been concentrating on others and the space between themselves and others all their lives. so they are very good at using those tactics in that cognitiveprocesses definition - "The 'social graces,' such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling".

    also i think the lack of a Pi agenda is a big factor in interaction. Js usually have a predetermined agenda, whereas Ps often... float. we figure our goals out as we go. so a Fe dom or aux will almost always come to other people with a goal in mind - so they are more experienced at "moving" those people around to line them up to not get in the way of their goal (or even to help their goal), whereas Ps don't really do that, and when we finally get into a situation where we want/need to, we are like wtf?

    in general i think what i understand best of Fe, i've picked up from watching my mom and good Fe dominant friend... and also like vala and LL have said, "mirroring".

    By the way, I don't want my posts to sound like I am down about Fi - because ultimately I do love who I am - it's just there are times that I feel out of my element... when I think I shouldn't be so out of my element... Am I making any sense?

    I'll think on this.
    yeah totally. it's being a good people person sometimes but also being completely sometimes!

  2. #42
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post


    its not Fi ispired Fe, because you are using your internal judgment on judging the value value, its simply Fi that has been empathized(by Ne) or/and Ne abstracted(by Fi).

    would you care about its value to other person if the person(or the situation being smooth for you and people you do care about) didnt have any value for you? or would you dislike to mirror someone who is pissed off?
    Actually, it's a learned choice. When I was younger, I mirrored, period. I didn't have control over it, which is what makes Fi such a painful motherf***. After a while, that automatic natural response, if you learn to look closer at it and focus on it, becomes something you can stop, much like a kneejerk reflex that you focus on, to stop it from responding. So yes, when I was younger, and even now, when I'm too tired or not paying attention, I mirror anger. A learned behavior is to not mirror but show remorse when someone yells *at* me in rage. That was drilled into me by my mother and surroundings and makes me incredibly resentful in the process. Nowadays, when someone's projecting anger at me, I'm able to consciously disable the kneejerk anger mirrorring response through the empathetic info I get (oh he's pissy about this and this) and channel and transform that original rage into calmness, aided by the understanding I gained through experience and Fi, to then consciously and deliberately project that calmness back at the subject, in an effort to get him to unconsciously be influenced by it so he can get passed the anger and actually do something about the problem, instead of projecting onto me.

    This is why I earlier on stated that Fi to me is about actually reading peoples feelings accurately and in depth as you mirror them in their raw state, but not necessarily a) understanding the feeling you're mirrorring or b) guaranteeing being able, like Fe, to handle those feelings in a socially acceptable way. That part takes time...and a looooooooot of practice.
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  3. #43
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Really good information here. It does make sense that I am still using internal feeling to weigh up the value. I think I have been focusing too much on the behavior/outcome instead of the process at work. It absolutely fascinates me that you guys are able to break down your actions and motivations like this... because I just seem to act, without giving a whole lot of thought to how the process breaks down. Infact, when I really think about it.. I think I tend spend far more time analyzing others behaviors than my own. Is that strange?

    Also, the Fe being smoother, more consistent, more socially acceptable.. is exactly what I wish I was able to do. I don't go into social situations very quietly (unfortunately!) I tend to share things about my life that most people would never share, but also keep very simple things to myself that others wouldn't. I also hate.. absolutely HATE being with people in alot of grief over someone passing away.. because I just NEVER seem to say the right thing, but I always feel like I should say something! My friends perceive me as quite a charactor, and a bit eccentric ... and I am thankful that they think it is good and not bad. I think that I am at my worst when dealing with people in authorative positions. I just NEVER can seem to sense the appropriate interaction.. and fall hard on the "there shit stinks just as much as mine does" side of it.

    Perfect example of how my lack of Fe gets me into trouble: I was working for a company that I had been at for about 4 years when they decided to do some management shifting and bring in a new head-hauncho from back east. I was outside one day with a group of co-workers, discussing (okay bitching) about how ineffective and incompetent some of the processes and management was. Head hauncho decides to join our group, but none of us knew who he was. Everyone else shuts the hell up... but not me.. oh no.. I continue to bloviate on about the problems. Finally he looks at me and starts asking me detailed questions about certain departments, people.. and I just don't hold back, basically giving him all the dirt and my perception of everything thats wrong. He thanks me and goes inside. An hour later we have a huge company meeting (with over 300 of us) and he takes the podium and is introduced as the new center manager. I almost fucking fainted.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #44
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Perfect example of how my lack of Fe gets me into trouble: I was working for a company that I had been at for about 4 years when they decided to do some management shifting and bring in a new head-hauncho from back east. I was outside one day with a group of co-workers, discussing (okay bitching) about how ineffective and incompetent some of the processes and management was. Head hauncho decides to join our group, but none of us knew who he was. Everyone else shuts the hell up... but not me.. oh no.. I continue to bloviate on about the problems. Finally he looks at me and starts asking me detailed questions about certain departments, people.. and I just don't hold back, basically giving him all the dirt and my perception of everything thats wrong. He thanks me and goes inside. An hour later we have a huge company meeting (with over 300 of us) and he takes the podium and is introduced as the new center manager. I almost fucking fainted.
    In this story, my "N" would have told me, "OK, wait, you don't know who this guy is so you better error on the side of caution. Find out who he is and what he's all about first, and then proceed with your storytelling." It would have been my intuition presenting me with "possibilities" (worst case scenarios) that would have prevented me from saying those things. Fe would have been secondary.

    Whenever I'm talking with friends or co-workers and someone new walks up that I don't know, my Ne always goes, "Alert. Alert. Gather data about new person before saying too much."
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  5. #45
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Yes, My "N" has worked that way for me many times as well. Just not in this situation =D I may have been allowing Fi (that a value of mine was crossed in poor business process that affected the employees) go awry. I've also heard ne when used as an aux function can be used as a safeguard by exploring more dangerous or negative possibilites.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  6. #46
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Fe: The process of extraverted Feeling often involves a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The “social graces,” such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate, often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them. Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs. We may recognize and adhere to shared values, feelings, and social norms to get along.

    Okay... I am curious how many dom/aux Fi users relate to Fe?

    The reason I ask this is because I have come to really, REALLY appreciate Fe in the last few years. I do NOT doubt my Fi at all. So please don't bring it into question unless you think you've got a some serious insight on this and me, and well.. even then i ask you PM me.

    Sometimes.. when I look over much of the teens and twenties, I am dissappointed in what I'd almost consider a lack of Fe. It's become glaringly apparent in recent times just how important extroverting feeling really is. Things like not showing up to birthdays or family gatherings, not taking the time to send people I love cards or letters, allowing great distances to develop between myself and the people I love very much.. I almost feel as though I've been very selfish and childish. Fe just seems like such a neccessary factor is maintaing good relations. But it goes even beyond that, beyond wanting community and harmony and connection.. I sometimes ask myself.. Have I shown enough love? Do these people really know where they stand with me? What could possibly be more important than this? And I come up empty handed. And while it is not my natural tendency to extovert feelings and I would never want to be anything other than what I am, I question if who I am is really a person so engrossed in my own feelings/values that I can ignore very simple, tangible displays of affection that just might mean the world to someone else.

    Have any of you Fi users noticed anything like this?

    *THREAD NOT INTENDED TO BECOME A FE/FI BATTLE*
    general good manners are important to a lot of Fi/Te users. the biggest difference I've noticed is that Fe users tend to focus more on what to do while Te users focus on what not to do
    FJ: "we need to do this" "I should do this" "you're supposed to do this"
    there is more of a sense of unity often a sense of obligation to the group. Fe users feel they need to go the extra mile and expect others to do the same

    TJ: "that would be inconsiderate" "how rude" "that's disrespectful"
    Fi/Te users don't have the sense of obligation or duty present in Fe users. they're more concerned with being honorable and respectful and not doing anything that would be unpleasant or inconsiderate. unlike Fe users, Fi/Te users are more objective with their responsibilities. if they have to do something, they don't feel like they have to do more once they're finished. that's not to say that they won't do more, but they won't feel like they HAVE to do more if they don't want to.

    I run into trouble with my FJ parents because they are in this constant state of helpfulness while I just want to know what I need to do so I can get it done and be over with it.
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  7. #47
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    *not an enfp

    I do see a bit of this in myself. However, it might be my enneagram type that is doing the talking. It is because it has been a behavior of mine since I was a kid. I liked going to family gatherings. I sometimes rather defer to other people because I'm not happy if other people aren't happy. Family (and extended family being relatives) is important to me. Things like family fighting for petty reasons annoy the heck out of me. And if I can defer to someone else in my family without needing to fight for something, I will gladly do so.

    I can even spew up all these lines to prove it.

    "Ohana means family, and family means nobody gets left behind."

    See?!!!

  8. #48
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Another interesting social situation I've noticed that really, really irritates me is with certain extroverted Fi/Te users. I think it's because I'm an introverted Fe user (social interaction demands my full attention, I'm very focused and don't like to be interrupted), but when I'm talking to someone, having a conversation, or getting to know somebody - we're just standing there having a nice conversation to ourselves and all the sudden an extroverted Fi user will just barge into the conversation and totally interrupt right in the middle of someone's sentence.

    Person X: Yeah, it was really good to meet you. If you come to the area again, you should get in contact with us.
    Me: Definitely. I'll probably be back in the area in about.................
    Extroverted Fi user walks up (from nowhere): OMG, person X, where did you go? We've all been looking for you!
    Me (in my head): Are you freakin' serious?

    That is soooo rude to me. It's like the ultimate signal to me that the person is almost incapable of controlling themselves and their impulses - there is no regard for what is happening around them. I'm not saying that all extroverted Fi users do this, I'm just saying that I've had it happen with a few of them. Sometimes it seems like they want attention and sometimes it seems like they just don't realize what they are doing. In that situation above, when I got interrupted, I just stopped right in the middle of my sentence and walked away to go talk to someone else, because at that point Ti over-ruled Fe. Ti just goes, "Buh bye." And then the extroverted Fi person was looking at me from a distance like they maybe finally realized what they did. Arrrgh, it's just so rude. One of those things that really gets under my skin. I know I have my quirks too, however.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Really good information here. It does make sense that I am still using internal feeling to weigh up the value. I think I have been focusing too much on the behavior/outcome instead of the process at work. It absolutely fascinates me that you guys are able to break down your actions and motivations like this... because I just seem to act, without giving a whole lot of thought to how the process breaks down. Infact, when I really think about it.. I think I tend spend far more time analyzing others behaviors than my own. Is that strange?

    Also, the Fe being smoother, more consistent, more socially acceptable.. is exactly what I wish I was able to do. I don't go into social situations very quietly (unfortunately!) I tend to share things about my life that most people would never share, but also keep very simple things to myself that others wouldn't. I also hate.. absolutely HATE being with people in alot of grief over someone passing away.. because I just NEVER seem to say the right thing, but I always feel like I should say something! My friends perceive me as quite a charactor, and a bit eccentric ... and I am thankful that they think it is good and not bad. I think that I am at my worst when dealing with people in authorative positions. I just NEVER can seem to sense the appropriate interaction.. and fall hard on the "there shit stinks just as much as mine does" side of it.

    Perfect example of how my lack of Fe gets me into trouble: I was working for a company that I had been at for about 4 years when they decided to do some management shifting and bring in a new head-hauncho from back east. I was outside one day with a group of co-workers, discussing (okay bitching) about how ineffective and incompetent some of the processes and management was. Head hauncho decides to join our group, but none of us knew who he was. Everyone else shuts the hell up... but not me.. oh no.. I continue to bloviate on about the problems. Finally he looks at me and starts asking me detailed questions about certain departments, people.. and I just don't hold back, basically giving him all the dirt and my perception of everything thats wrong. He thanks me and goes inside. An hour later we have a huge company meeting (with over 300 of us) and he takes the podium and is introduced as the new center manager. I almost fucking fainted.
    I see this as more of an extravert issue rather than Fi. Even if I was extremely frustrated with the company I worked for... as soon as an unknown data sample walked into the arena, I would be quiet until I could ascertain where they stood on certain issues. I have seen a lot of ENPs do this kind of stuff where I want to yank them back from the edge of the abyss before they get too far.

    Example, one of my ENTP friends is known for his hilarious but often inappropriate jokes. He was at a bachelor party a few years back and he heard someone say "Cerebral Palsy". Without knowing ANY of the context of this, he makes this weird noise and does some spazzy moves. The entire table of 20 men stopped talking and stared at him in horror. The context, he later found out, was that someone's brother had just been diagnosed. The ENTP felt horrible about it but ultimately couldn't say much other than, "hey... so I am kind of a jerk at times..."

    The first rule of anything is: know thy audience*.

    *In relaxed social situations I am not always as good with this so I am not trying to slam the ENXPs of the world here. I have my moments where I go off on some subject to find that someone in my audience feels/thinks/has done differently. Oops! I try to not indulge into too much pure Ne mode... because that is where my mouth starts writing checks I just can't cash.

    Just my INFP two cents on you crazy, crazy extraverts!

  10. #50
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vala Faye View Post
    Actually, it's a learned choice. When I was younger, I mirrored, period. I didn't have control over it, which is what makes Fi such a painful motherf***. After a while, that automatic natural response, if you learn to look closer at it and focus on it, becomes something you can stop, much like a kneejerk reflex that you focus on, to stop it from responding. So yes, when I was younger, and even now, when I'm too tired or not paying attention, I mirror anger. A learned behavior is to not mirror but show remorse when someone yells *at* me in rage. That was drilled into me by my mother and surroundings and makes me incredibly resentful in the process. Nowadays, when someone's projecting anger at me, I'm able to consciously disable the kneejerk anger mirrorring response through the empathetic info I get (oh he's pissy about this and this) and channel and transform that original rage into calmness, aided by the understanding I gained through experience and Fi, to then consciously and deliberately project that calmness back at the subject, in an effort to get him to unconsciously be influenced by it so he can get passed the anger and actually do something about the problem, instead of projecting onto me.

    This is why I earlier on stated that Fi to me is about actually reading peoples feelings accurately and in depth as you mirror them in their raw state, but not necessarily a) understanding the feeling you're mirrorring or b) guaranteeing being able, like Fe, to handle those feelings in a socially acceptable way. That part takes time...and a looooooooot of practice.
    Interesting. I never thought of it as mirroring per se. I just kind of attributed it to being empathic with people.

    Explains why I dislike dating men who get angry easily. I don't like being angry myself.

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