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  1. #61
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    *epiphany

    maybe you guys caught this and i'm just slow

    BUT

    so entropie.

    essentially you're saying:

    since ENFPs talk about their Te so much and its usefulness in structuring, it stands to reason that structure is important to us. but if it is important to us, then why don't we structure initially, instead of having to come back later and structure our messes.

    i think because other things are more important to us up until the point at which structuring becomes necessary to live the way we want to live.

    i think you will find in general that ENFPs really don't care much about delegation or organization - or logic in general - beyond usefulness in streamlining things in our lives such that we have more time to concentrate on what is important to us.

    also sometimes it feels like Te is what makes others consider me a "grown up" when otherwise i really just wouldn't mind being a 5 year old running around chasing butterflies. so obviously it should be bragged about.


  2. #62
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vala Faye View Post
    Entropie, the curiosity and thread are much appreciated but you're right, we don't like to muck about..we like to get to the core of this kind of shit as we don't enjoy misunderstandings, especially not when it comes to our own behavior. So..what is it exactly you'd like to know? Why Te is important to us? Why we find ourselves tlaking about it so much? Why it shows up in us in the most unusual ways? What exactly are you curious about? Remember, we tend to be eager to please,especially if someone takes the effort, a genuine effort to want to understand us (not probe us and use our words against us, mind you), so chances are, if you ask a direct and honest question, you'll get a straight forward answer
    Well since this is my thread, I can make the rules . I admit it was a dumb idea to ask introverted Feelers for a philosophical discussion about themselves. I should have seen it coming that it ends with me hanging in line with only the answering machine. The concrete question is basically captivated perfectly in the last post quote in this reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    well okay...i think enfps sort of use their te to put into action or clarify the information they have brought in with ne and deemed worthy with fi...i think you guys use your fe to charm people to stimulate your ti and go nuts with it with ne...or something...that was on fly and most likely pointless...let me try another one...enfps send out ne probes and nibble at it with fi and spit it out if it tastes yuck or use their te to demand to know what it is so that they may decide if they give a shit haha

    i've completely lost track of what we were talking about...let me think.

    let's see...you want to understand what makes us so different...well fi/ti haha we want to know you at the core. we care mostly about how you feel about something....ehh...nevermind with this schpiel...i'm not saying anything that hasn't been said better before by someone else on this site.
    I am not having the feeling so far that you would really want to know me at the core, otherwise you’d be more open to my way of dealing with things, which you should be able to do having a broad Ne perspective. So far I get the impression that if I don’t play by your rules, you wont talk to me and that of course provokes a goatish reaction from me. ENTPs do want to know people at the very core themselves, but when they notice this is only one-sided, they’ll turn their back on people.

    I am sorry that I am being unfair here, since you already wrote the fifth post or so and are honestly trieing to answer the zero-existent question, but I am very sensitive as well to having things my way and we’ll need a compromise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Ditto.
    You of all people I counted on !! Shame on you, I am gonna tell the city administration they shall raise the taxes for teachers .

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post


    to try to answer your actual wondering... i think it depends a lot on the individuals. but on the whole i think that the major difference is that ENFPs are more motivated by ideas than values/ethics. it's very similar to the ENTP/INTP difference, really (i have both ENTPs & INTPs in the family, so i'm saying this from firsthand observation). in general i think ENxPs care less than INxPs that things are ideal because by sacrificing some perfection we can gain a broader scope of ideas and more leeway to experiment. an ENFP will cut Fi corners for the sake of curiosity, whereas an INFP will reign Ne in for the sake of maintaining their values. so as a result ENFPs are more dynamic, more exploratory, less considerate, less idealistic.
    This is my experience as well. Tho I have been trieing in the last years to really put more emphasis on that Ti, but it’s so tough to do that .



    but that's because hosting is completely a Fe thing - mobilization of people and maintenance of interaction. Fe can totally take care of that. T isn't really needed at all.

    how can i explain... well, the way i conceptualize the Judging functions is as "prioritizing". all Judging functions place things in hierarchies of what is most important. the T functions rank things by logical sequence, while the F functions rank things by personal significance. then the I/E attitudes designate where the ranking is applied to. Te ranks external things by logical sequence, and Fe ranks external things by personal sequence. they're really quite similar, i think. an ENFJ friend of mine is an excellent delegator and group leader, for example. they both are good at manipulating external things, including tasks, objects, and people. the question is not what they manipulate, but how. Te can direct people very well by organizing them in logical groupings, and Fe can do the same by organizing them for interpersonally significant groupings.
    Yes that is what I had in mind. People run around and put the Te label on things too easily. If it has to do with organisation it must be Te. But that’s not the case, the actual reality is much more finetuned than that. Up until the point when its getting so fine that Newtonian mbti rules don’t apply no more and you get to play in the real league of understanding people in their most inner core.

    so then we have their partners, Ti (ranks internal things by logic) and Fi (ranks internal things by personal significance) - with the caveat that "internal" really means "internal" to any system, not just internal to oneself. so an ENFP with Fi can get a sense of the internal wellbeing (or poor health) of a group, but we don't have any means of organizing that group without a Je function, so that's where Te comes in. essentially no one can organize their external environment without a Je function. which is why you and i are both Ps, and Pe-doms - we don't tend to actively organize our external environment, we tend to "flow" with it instead, and seek internal structure (Ti/Fi). but we still both need Je if we are to deal with situations like delegation, where we need to manipulate external things. and that's why ESFJs can easily host without summoning T at all - because Fe is already structuring their external environment for them. and ENTPs can rely on their internal sense of logic to organize things - it will just be based on an ideal inner system, instead of piecing together an external system like Te. but since Ti works logically, it can organize. whereas an ENFP trying to organize things via Fi... wow, i don't even know what would happen. i think nothing would happen. we probably just wouldn't care.

    maybe that's what i've been getting at. Fi doesn't always care about the things that Ti gives you a sense of logical ordering for, and that's why we need T. but an ESFJ doesn't need T because they already have a means of organizing the external. and an INFP doesn't need it because INFP's main goal isn't to get things from the external world, it's to organize the inner world, and so they summon Si for support instead of an external function.
    You phrased that beautifully, those are the Fi discussions I am used to thru my girlfriend. I don’t want to comment in any way on this, cause I think its perfect and it is very rare that I feel like that, still extraordinarily with Fi and Ti users this does happen for me. I even learnt a thing, so thank you .


    oh wow, that took me a long time to get here. i hope you haven't gotten tired of reading this rambling. my final conclusion is this:

    so ENFPs seek, first and foremost, engagement with the external environment of concepts and ideas. Fi gives us a sense of what we care about, and how things "should" be, but it does not really help us actively reorganize our external environment, which we need to do sometimes to make engaging with the external environment easier for us. so that's why Te is so important. i was wrong... it's important both because it's T and because it's Je. it could be Fe, but then we would have a very hard time detaching from situations and we would get hurt even more easily than we already do. it could be Ti, but then we'd have conflict between Ti and Fi. so Te serves the double functions of (a) protecting us, because it is T and allows us to detach, and (b) arming us with a way to manipulate the environment, because it is Je and prioritizes the external.
    No I never get tired. In fact I have been learning for my exam all night, slept 3 hours and then wrote the exam. Now I am at work for another 8 hours and my stomach feels like its about to vomit itself from all the coffee, but the batteries are still holding !!

    I relate to what you say. I am still doubting that Te is the only way to protect yourself or to manipulate the environment, you didn’t say that but I’ll pick up on that later.

    mm, perhaps so. i don't really see the world as disarray much, but i am admittedly a more organized variety of ENFP. i think the problem is that if we are looking at a picture like this:



    Ne + Fi thought is more like:



    while Ne + Ti is more like:



    and you are seeing the lack of logical organization. but it is not so uncomfortable, when you're inside our skin.
    Ya that’s about right, tho Ne + Ti is too concrete in the picture. Having T influenced by N we see the same abstract big picture like you do, it’s just composed differently. I for example don’t see images in my head, I cant remember places or shit, I heavily relate to words and connect them in a cloud matrix in my head and form a big picture. It’s basically defined by what you say how I feel towards you that explains the seemingly higher sensitivity of me as well. While most people would accuse me of wanting people to speak according to a societal norm, for me its just the primary way to perceive the world. And by reading like 5 various words in a post, I immediantly have a clear abstract impression of a person that usually lasts forever, if I don’t fight it. It’s a huge undertaking for me to jump over my own Ti and to admit that first impression abstract images are no real science or a real thing that you ever could trust. Then again my knowledge of the human nature has seldom been wrong.

    The best way to visualize would be a world of symbols, numbers and forms:





    yeah. i don't think there is, really... i think it's just that we don't always care about logical things very much. like i was saying before about Fi... Fi doesn't always really care. and because Ne comes first, the drive to explore is most important... so we tend to run ahead exploring and making sure we are intrapersonally aware, and logic sort of lingers in the background. like, oh hey, maybe i should clean up, this clutter is kind of getting in the way. but if we were like you were suggesting... if we "stabilized"... aka were able to organize logically internally... well, we would be ENTPs, wouldn't we

    are you asking us to become ENTPs?
    This isn’t what I suggested. What I was suggesting you grabbed in your last post. More on that any minute now.



    yeah! well i think your questions are interesting.

    i have to agree with what lady x and LL have asked though... what is it exactly that you are asking? i think we are looking at 2 different pictures again... lol... you're asking something about the diagram picture and we're looking at the painting and not seeing...
    Nono, you just grabbed perfectly what I was asking for and answered it. Don’t ruin it by teaming up with the masses .

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    *epiphany

    maybe you guys caught this and i'm just slow

    BUT

    so entropie.

    essentially you're saying:

    since ENFPs talk about their Te so much and its usefulness in structuring, it stands to reason that structure is important to us. but if it is important to us, then why don't we structure initially, instead of having to come back later and structure our messes.

    i think because other things are more important to us up until the point at which structuring becomes necessary to live the way we want to live.

    i think you will find in general that ENFPs really don't care much about delegation or organization - or logic in general - beyond usefulness in streamlining things in our lives such that we have more time to concentrate on what is important to us.

    also sometimes it feels like Te is what makes others consider me a "grown up" when otherwise i really just wouldn't mind being a 5 year old running around chasing butterflies. so obviously it should be bragged about.

    Thats basically it. I didnt even think that you should structure things before they hurt you: I was thinking since I have read so often in the forum that when a personal problem arises enfp refer to their Te, if there wasn’t another way to cope with things.

    The majority of introverted dominant or aux people just ignore what they think they cant change, because they don’t have the power to behave otherwise. I had the attitude that when my competence in a situation would making false steps, I could charm my way out of it always. But some day it didn’t work. The same I thought about enfps: when they encounter a situation that is emotionally so overwhelming, they could react with Te and soft-pedal the situation by deeming it not worthy and “its just an emotional problem, be a man” – thing. I witness that often in my girlfriend and since I am the girl in the relationship it’s a good pairing that we have. The thing is instead of talking about her problems, she puts them down with Te. While I would never admit I have no competence, I’d just charm my way out of things.

    I think to be a bit closer to the final truth of the universe and all this a thing both types should learn about themselves.

    That was the quintessence of what I wanted to say.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #63
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    I love how Ne is so focused on categorisation ' THIS IS THIS, WHEREAS THIS IS THAT '.

    An incredibly simplistic viewpoint on what in effect is a phenomonen of 'does'.

  4. #64
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Judging from the billion of simplistic viewpoints you fail to see daily, I have a small price to pay
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #65
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    BAZINGGG


    love your responses entropie, will be back to talk more soon. have an appointment i have to run to. just wanted to share in emphasizing that jim is a Ni fluffer.

    jim we do know that functions are processes but it's easier to conceptualize them as "actors". chalk it up to Ne/Si, i suppose. you are right, as much as it displeases me to acquiesce, and even more to my displeasure your point may even facilitate communication here.

    but also you are an ass.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    but also you are an ass.
    Sure, but a cute ass and an expert fluffer.


  7. #67
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Do they ? They talk about it in every second thread, moreso than ever about their Fi. While in comparison the likelyhood of an entp talking about his / her dick is higher than talking about Fe.

    Is there a correlation ? Why this obsession, do you like to be dominated or love pain in relationships ? What is the key I am missing here and how late is it ?
    Well, I think the same trend shows up in the NTPs as well.

    NTPs dont talk about Fe, but they instead are quite obsessed with discussing relationships among people-Fe in action. It is very funny to see INTPs on forums who seem to be amazingly skilled at handling relationships and giving advice about how others should handle romantic and parenting relationships. Perhaps they are really great at this in real life, I dunno. The INTPs I know dont seem to be, or even the ENTPs, but to read internet land, I'd say your guys were amazing. I also note NTPs insist upon the fact that they feel emotions just as strongly as NFPs or any other type. I dont recall anyone saying they didnt, but it is something they seem to feel the need to say.

    I suspect in both cases you are seeing the same sort of trend. In the real world, we all end up much more diverse and well rounded than our MBTI stereotypes would indicate, but in forums we get stucked in these damned little cramped boxes, thus we find ways to dig ourselves out of them.

    For ENFPs this is extremely annoying to be treated as though we are incapable of logical thought or be stereotyped as the fluffy bunny. It is positively mind boggling as we are engineers, executives, scientists, physicians and on and on...so we poke at it and try to understand why we do what we do...

    I see INFJs who are NiTi do the same thing very often though on the INTJ forum.

  8. #68
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    cool entropie..i thought skylights seemed to grasp your meaning well and did an awesome job responding to it.

    and you say that you don't feel like i want to know you at the core and i didn't mean you specifically...i just meant to state that when we interact with people we're usually wanting to operate on that level...you've heard us talk about te being a relief function and that's probably what was going on here. i was trying to get to the essence of intent...the ideas floating about and what they meant to you but couldn't conclude anything definitive...so then i simply state...name your objective so that we may proceed! haha but you should know that just because any of us may do that it doesn't mean we don't truly care or that we're incapable of brainstorming ideas...but there are more than one or two functions at play.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I see INFJs who are NiTi do the same thing very often though on the INTJ forum.
    And of course INTJs love our extreme moralist dialogues.

    EricB has some superb summaries of the relief and trickster/PoLR effects.

  10. #70
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    oh dear, i skipped the middle 7 pages and only answered your first post. Sorry!

    What do I use Te for?

    Te protects my emotions by totally building a wall between me and the other, should they push too far.

    Te is the toolkit to accomplish Fi goals-just as you would charm the people to implement an idea you have, I will manipualte the logistical and organizational structure, to serve an Fi agenda I have.

    Te guides Ne exploration. The initial area of interest may be Fi oriented, but for me, the Te serves as the rails, the foundation. It feels a bit like the "matrix" picture you posted, but not so detailed. I think in flow charts that have people oriented boundaries and content. My entp friend says I can extract the gist of an idea faster than she can, as I jettison the detail, but look for the outlines. I can shift the outlines based upon the endpoint objective i need to accomplish.

    Te is a shortcut for Fi. Fi analysis can be emotionally draining and time consuming, so it is easier to build an entire Te set of rules about the world. I use those generically, guided by established Fi values, and only use Fi when I deal 1:1 with people. At the Fi level I totally scrap the Te rules if needed.

    Te helps me put the welfare of the group above the welfare of the individual. What is the best answer for EVERYONE, not just the person in front of me? This sounds-Fe-ish, but at the heart of most older TJs, you find values of integrity, honesty, and a sense of idealism. They REALLY do want the best for people-acheived via Te methods that strive for efficiency.

    Te has led me to seek very direct, open honest, even painful feedback. I need to be as good as i can be, but I cant do that unless I understand my flaws. I seek to do the same to others.

    Te DOESNT Bitchslap people. I dont know what that is-the enfp bitchslap-Jung would have called it a "complex" that wells to the surface defensively, but I dont call it Te. I'd almost suggest weird, warped shadowy Ti/Fe if I had to give it a name, but i think reducing it to functions is way too simplistic.

    Also-NeTe can be flawed-it takes leaps and skips steps. Fi fits in here somewhere, even when not being used on people, but instead ideas. Fi is kinesthetic....Fi is like Ti that is all inclusive ??? It tries to touch the world and fold it in upon itself, while Ti seems more like a precise singularity which rejects things that try to intrude too depply or blur the distinct linsk it has created. Additionally, I need a Ti user around, so we can cross check one another-I see the endpoint, they see my gaps, so we take turns building a path forward.

    (Also-I called all of this "Te". Recognize that is me just simply using Te as a shortcut like I mentioned above. Our minds are crazy freaking complex, so much like in quantum, simply slapping a label of "Te" allows for a first order perturbation solution, but to get the most accurate answer, you need to refine, further and further, to the individual level, thus showing that what I call Te is highly individualistic to me, and in another ENFP, the same "Te" is likely a distinctly different beast)

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