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  1. #21
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    i have noticed that enfp's and intj's tend to talk about their tertiary functions more than other types.. like you said i don't see entp's identifying with fe as much, or inxp's with si.

    i guess enfp's think their te makes them more badass and that intj's think their fi makes them more sensitive. or something.

  2. #22
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Meh, I get tired of hearing that ENFP's are INTJ's little pawns. I dated an INTJ for over a year.. and got him to engage in all kinds of irrational shenanigans with minimal effort. I won't go into too much detail, but I even got him to cry like a little girl in the bedroom a few times I captured some of those tears and they've been selling on EBAY for $4500.00 a pop.

    BUt uh, onto your theory.. you'd have to throw out more info than "noticing a Te complex".. what exactly are you noticing? Saying your going to put something down with Te doesn't really mean much. Have you seen it in action? Perhaps ENFP's have heard that the development of Te is important, and they are grasping at straws trying to convince themselves (or others) they have it? I've noticed a few sigs that say something like "ENFP with KICKASS Te"... I think it's kinda funny though. I might update my sig to say "ENFP with KICKASS Janis Joplin Kareoke skills" =)
    Hehe ok I can understand that, I hate cliches as well, it's just so difficult to circumvent them when you are angry. I take back what I said about who is the pawn in the intj-enfp relationship .

    What I said here is basically only a visual thing I have witnessed. You'll find in many threads that enfp tend to talk about their Te the most and it made me wonder why that is so. I am having basically a question for you, cause I have troubles and not the competence to elaborate on that.

    My encounters with enfps have been not so good so far. Usually enfps are genuinely interested in people and start to ask you some questions if they want to get to know you. Those questions are most often not questions like "what is the value of pi ?", which I can answer, but questions like "How did you feel when XY happened", which I most often cant answer. Besides that question, I have encountered enfps often asking me out on my reallife and important decisions, like "do you feel good at your job?". I dont like those questions as well cause I am very restless and its hard to make me feel good at anything. I basically like my conversations impersonal, professional and factual so I can avoid thinking too much about myself.

    To clarify, I have rejected for myself being typed mbti entp, I have changed over the last years and I cant identify no more with the majority of the type description. Still the other type I can see for myself, namely being entj is phrased so poorly so often and doesnt fit into my cultural background. It presents the type as the loud and obnoxious elbow kinda type who with no morales raises to the top, I doubt that the majority of entjs is really like that and where I come from a guy like that will be quickly be put offside in a company. So I am basically stranded at the moment and choosed the russian entj equivalent LIE from socionics as my type cause it is the one description I actually identify the most with. In addition I dont believe in overdoing function theory so much, cause tho it may be possible to squeeze every single human reaction into a function, I cant see humans so isolated, for me they are more a big picture and the sum of the things they say.

    Which is another problem, I generally take things at face value, I have tho experienced often with enfps that they rephrase what they originally said and then rephrase the second thing as well. I cant work with people like that cause I wont gain trust in their abilities. On the contrary I am growing very mistrusting of their nature and competence over time and I suspect enfps feel that, which alienates us more.

    So see I said I dont talk about myself and still I am doing it . Maybe there is hope.

    Basic key points summed up:
    - I have read enfps often talking about their Te on forums, often speaking of the function as a conflict solver or management / organizing utility; I think tho that Te is more the capability to be able to interprete the world objectively as much as possible and to isolate ones personal feelings on costs of individuality
    - I do not have much experience with enfps and know even less about their inner life
    - I am not here to argue or challenge, I am here to ask that question and to learn and if there is nothing to answer, I'll come back with another thread
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    http://www.nyaap.org/jung-lexicon/c/#complex
    Complex
    An emotionally charged group of ideas or images. (See also Word Association Experiment.)


    "[A complex] is the image of a certain psychic situation which is strongly accentuated emotionally and is, moreover, incompatible with the habitual attitude of consciousness.["A Review of the Complex Theory," CW 8, par. 201.]"

    "The via regia to the unconscious . . . is not the dream, as [Freud] thought, but the complex, which is the architect of dreams and of symptoms. Nor is this via so very Z"royal," either, since the way pointed out by the complex is more like a rough and uncommonly devious footpath.[ Ibid., par. 210.]"

    Formally, complexes are "feeling-toned ideas" that over the years accumulate around certain archetypes, for instance "mother" and "father." When complexes are constellated, they are invariably accompanied by affect. They are always relatively autonomous.

    "Complexes interfere with the intentions of the will and disturb the conscious performance; they produce disturbances of memory and blockages in the flow of associations; they appear and disappear according to their own laws; they can temporarily obsess consciousness, or influence speech and action in an unconscious way. In a word, complexes behave like independent beings.["Psychological Factors in Human Behaviour," ibid., par. 253.]"

    "Complexes are in fact "splinter psyches." The aetiology of their origin is frequently a so-called trauma, an emotional shock or some such thing, that splits off a bit of the psyche. Certainly one of the commonest causes is a moral conflict, which ultimately derives from the apparent impossibility of affirming the whole of one’s nature.["A Review of the Complex Theory," ibid., par. 204.]"

    "Everyone knows nowadays that people "have complexes." What is not so well known, though far more important theoretically, is that complexes can have us.[Ibid., par. 200.]"

    Jung stressed that complexes in themselves are not negative; only their effects often are. In the same way that atoms and molecules are the invisible components of physical objects, complexes are the building blocks of the psyche and the source of all human emotions.

    "Complexes are focal or nodal points of psychic life which we would not wish to do without; indeed, they should not be missing, for otherwise psychic activity would come to a fatal standstill.["A Psychological Theory of Types," CW 6, par. 925.]"

    "Complexes obviously represent a kind of inferiority in the broadest sense . . . [but] to have complexes does not necessarily indicate inferiority. It only means that something discordant, unassimilated, and antagonistic exists, perhaps as an obstacle, but also as an incentive to greater effort, and so, perhaps, to new possibilities of achievement.[Ibid., par. 925.]"

    "Some degree of one-sidedness is unavoidable, and, in the same measure, complexes are unavoidable too.["Psychological Factors in Human Behaviour," CW 8, par. 255.]"

    The negative effect of a complex is commonly experienced as a distortion in one or other of the psychological functions (feeling, thinking, intuition and sensation). In place of sound judgment and an appropriate feeling response, for instance, one reacts according to what the complex dictates. As long as one is unconscious of the complexes, one is liable to be driven by them.

    "The possession of complexes does not in itself signify neurosis . . . and the fact that they are painful is no proof of pathological disturbance. Suffering is not an illness; it is the normal counterpole to happiness. A complex becomes pathological only when we think we have not got it.["Psychotherapy and a Philosophy of Life," CW 16, par. 179.]"

    Identification with a complex, particularly the anima/animus and the shadow, is a frequent source of neurosis. The aim of analysis in such cases is not to get rid of the complexes-as if that were possible-but to minimize their negative effects by understanding the part they play in behavior patterns and emotional reactions.

    "A complex can be really overcome only if it is lived out to the full. In other words, if we are to develop further we have to draw to us and drink down to the very dregs what, because of our complexes, we have held at a distance.["Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype," CW 9i, par. 184.]"
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  4. #24
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #26
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    I can understand the tert draw. If you consider that tert is a relief function, it's not surprising that ENFPs are drawn to INTJs. The reverse attraction of INTJs drawn to ENFPs is less about the tert and more about drawing the turtle out of his/her shell with bouncy Ne.

  7. #27
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I wont pay you no matter how long you stalk me
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #28
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I wont pay you no matter how long you stalk me
    i will continue stalking you, till you pay me
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #29
    Junior Member Jade19's Avatar
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    All I know is I think ENFPs tend to be pretty happy about who and what they are, no matter how hard it is to be one.

  10. #30
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    To put it mildly, ENFP's REQUIRE development of tertiary Te to effectively function in the real world. So ya, you probably DO see ENFP's that have started to develop this.. and they are like "holy shit! I am not doomed to be a crazed lunatic! I have found a way to bring these ideas to fruition!"
    yeah it's true. Te helps us not be doomed to be crazy cat people.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    In matters of organizing and management I can understand that. Still its not really Te you need for that, because for example entps can become good at that aswell and can function in the world properly and they dont have Te. So there needs to be something deeper involved.
    well sure, but ENTPs have Ti aux. it's not Te that's important, it's T at all. but we'd drown in introversion if we had both Ti and Fi.

    I often read enfps saying that "they'll put the matter down with Te". The thing tho is that Te isnt really like a flaming sword of subjectivity, no its quite the contrary. its an element you use to try to shed light on things objectively and usually its not intended to be used as a weapon. Therefore I see a dangerous mix up between Fi and Te for enfps here. While intjs prolly would promote putting things down with force and the enfp is likely to be made their little pawn, the problem persists that when the enfp would be left alone, he'd lack the defensive backup by the intj. This could be a problem when he hasnt focussed until then on the really important thing which is Fi.
    sure. but it's like an INTJ wielding Fi led by Te, or any other type leading their tert with their aux - it's dangerous because their tert isn't well developed, and their aux isn't even that well developed either. the blind leading the blind, if you will. think of an ENTP wielding messy Fe led by Ti - not pretty.

    and sometimes we really have to use Te, or we'd be so bogged down in emotion that we'd never get anything done, and we'd never be able to move on from things. Fi is good, but sometimes it's a lot to handle - i often think of it like a wild horse, and it needs to be reined in sometimes. paying too much attention to Fi hurts us as much as not paying enough attention to Fi. Te helps organize all the crap Ne brings in, as well. Fi organizes internally but we need Te to give the world back something coherent. it's also rare that i think i've used very strong Te without attending to Fi. it's usually a last-ditch thing - like yelling at someone because they're hurting you so much emotionally you just can't take it anymore.

    i think in general it's called our "relief" function for a reason, lol - it really does relieve us when the weight of the world gets too heavy. also, ENFPs tend to talk about themselves a lot in general, especially the things we find great and unusual about ourselves, so i'm not really surprised we talk about it


    as for being pawns, lol - most ENFPs can tell you they can damn well hold their own - and one of the reasons we tend to like INTJs is because INTJs recognize that about us, even though they tease us. i seem to remember some study saying ENFPs are - aha - "Ranked 1st of all 16 types in using social and emotional coping resources and 2nd in using cognitive resources". we're pretty resilient, generally.

    I am envious that I wont be ever accepted in the enfp-intj club, still I like to expand my knowledge of the World.
    so THAT'S what this is about

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    My encounters with enfps have been not so good so far. Usually enfps are genuinely interested in people and start to ask you some questions if they want to get to know you. Those questions are most often not questions like "what is the value of pi ?", which I can answer, but questions like "How did you feel when XY happened", which I most often cant answer. Besides that question, I have encountered enfps often asking me out on my reallife and important decisions, like "do you feel good at your job?". I dont like those questions as well cause I am very restless and its hard to make me feel good at anything. I basically like my conversations impersonal, professional and factual so I can avoid thinking too much about myself.
    well that's not really the ENFP's problem, though, is it? that you have trouble answering their questions and don't like thinking about yourself? i mean, they probably think they're helping you. my INTP dad once said to me, "i don't really care that much about being 'happy'" - it was like to me. he cares about mental engagement, music, good food, etc, but he doesn't think of it in the same emotional terms i do. i was super concerned about figuring out how to help him be "happy" but he already was content. i didn't know others thought like that. if an ENFP asks what you felt, just say you're not great with emotions and tell them what you think. i mean, we're pretty easygoing, as far as wanting specifics - most ENFPs aren't going to care if you really answer a question exactly as it was worded. i'm sure they'll be interested to hear your thoughts about a situation.

    Which is another problem, I generally take things at face value, I have tho experienced often with enfps that they rephrase what they originally said and then rephrase the second thing as well. I cant work with people like that cause I wont gain trust in their abilities. On the contrary I am growing very mistrusting of their nature and competence over time and I suspect enfps feel that, which alienates us more.
    ah. the rephrasing is probably because we understand things in big "concepts", instead of specific words. what you'll find, though, is the changing words will always be anchored around a coherent idea. if you don't know what they're trying to say, ask what's most important about what they're saying, and they'll give you the "essence" of what they're talking about. to me it's very frustrating when people want me to remember exact specific words... i have no memory for that... and each single word can have so many different meanings! so does it matter if i scramble the words a bit, as long as i have the central concept? i do not think it usually does...

    - I have read enfps often talking about their Te on forums, often speaking of the function as a conflict solver or management / organizing utility; I think tho that Te is more the capability to be able to interprete the world objectively as much as possible and to isolate ones personal feelings on costs of individuality
    maybe true in a "pure" sense, but for an ENFP that ability to disconnect is what allows us to solve conflict and organize. it's my ability to detach myself from the F matters of a situation that allows me to say "this is what's important first", and act on that, and not get caught up in all the messy details.

    i hope that helps give explanations to what you are thinking?

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