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  1. #71
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    It's very much been implied by many posters continually contrasting tough love with the overly nice huggy parent who doesn't discipline, as if that's the only alternative. The arrow was meant to point up at skylights post concerning wanting tough love or comforting (I must've posted while the others were being posted also). As an INFP, I never wanted to be coddled, nor would tough love have worked with me. There's a middle ground.
    Ah, gotcha... I was just a little lost.

    Binaries are dangerous. People gravitate toward them because are easy to define; unfortunately, I think the harder road takes us through grayer, more ambiguous territory that demands thought and effort to sort out, rather than a preplanned instruction card. There are issues with both ends of the spectrum (the hard-assed parent vs the gushy spineless parent). Same thing with me, on the middle ground... the extremes both rubbed me the wrong way.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #72
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    tough love works on some kids, others like myself just makes them shut down. Jesus, love isn't suppose to be cuddles and sunshine shining out the other person's ass yes that's what the media says love is, but I don't buy it. Love is suppose to hurt at times, thats how you know it's real.if I was never punished for the shit i pulled, I would think I could get away with murder, thus ending up in jail. Realizing that I had boundaries kept me out of jail. Of course their's a line between tough love and abuse, but I don't buy that love is easy. If it was we wouldn't have divorce couples would never fight. Name one couple that has never had a fight, you can't.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #73
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    oh lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's very much been implied by many posters continually contrasting tough love with the overly nice huggy parent who doesn't discipline, as if that's the only alternative. The arrow was meant to point up at skylights post concerning wanting tough love or comforting [...] There's a middle ground.
    i just wanted to offer a perspective from a life that is on a vastly different page of things. i'm not trying to separate into binaries, i'm not trying to make things black-and-white, i'm not trying to shoot down the OP. i'm saying that, from my perspective, "tough love" - not abuse, not psychological trauma - but solid boundaries - can be a good thing.

    i'm a camp counselor in the summers, and i'm surrounded by kids who are overprotected. they hit the ground, you'd think it was the end of the world. screaming, crying, wanting someone to hold them, etc. screaming, crying, etc. when they don't get what they want. i love these kids, but holy crap. what i'm watching is so totally different from what's been talked about here so far. i've also come from a family situation with two very overprotective parents (whom i love endlessly - but) i see the negative effects in both myself and my sibling. i wouldn't call us spoiled, but i see other insidious effects - having problems with self-motivation, independence, confronting problems, interaction in close relationships.

    and of course there is a middle ground. and of course there are other perspectives. i'm a Ne dom, give me a break, my mind is suspended in 6 gajillion pieces somewhere in the ether. i don't know why you're trying to belittle my - and others' - perspectives by calling them black and white.

    It trivializes those things because it implies they are not strong & powerful. That only being tough, harsh, rigid, demanding, is what accomplishes anything, and that this is what the world is & will always be. It's a lack of faith of the parent in love, one they are passing down to their child.

    All of the things you mention here can be done without harshness or sternness (to use your quoted definition of tough love). You can let your child know all of those things while still being mild & understanding in your approach. How can you help a child overcome fear if you don't understand where it's even coming from? To just push them without knowing where the crack in their armor seems almost irresponsible to me.
    if i quoted someone's definition of harshness and sternness, that's not my definition of tough love. why would i not want to understand where a child is coming from? where are you getting this bizarre image of not ever speaking to a child, comforting a child, etc.? i'm just a fan of parents stepping back sometimes, and letting natural consequences run their course. and then coming to the child's aid. of not stopping the child before they can do something.

    for instance - yes of course you should tell a child not to touch the hot stove, it'd be irresponsible not to try to teach them that. but if they're showing obvious resistance to your guidance as a parent and really want to touch that stove, do you run over to pick them up and scoop them away, or just let them touch it? me, i'd let them touch it. i don't want any child to suffer, but i don't think hurting a little bit is that big of a deal. and that naturally reinforces why you don't touch a stove. it's "tough" because you're just letting nature run its course, and nature's not always very nice. but that choice has no bearing on my love for a child. i would let them touch it because i love them and want them to understand for themselves. and i would certainly hold them if they're crying, and bandage up their burn, and try to distract them from the hurt with happier things. and i would obviously try to get to the bottom of why they're feeling rebellious and what they really need deep down. i don't know why that assumption isn't there, in the NF idyllic of all places. an NF parent not wanting to deeply understand their child? an NF parent trivializing love? i generally steer clear of keirsey temperament stereotypes but i'm gonna go ahead and jump on this one and say that it's really hard for me to image any NF who takes the idea of love lightly.

    oh, but that's the difference, as far as i'm understanding it right now, between my perspective on "tough love" and those of members who have a more negative viewpoint on it. i am not for aggressively "tough" parenting. i do not think children should be berated, yelled at, forced into things, handled roughly, cursed at, insulted, or anything like that. but i also don't think children should be free from being criticized, receiving consequences, moving past their comfort zone, having to act independently, or following through. it's like the difference between aggressive and assertive... aggression hurts a child... but not being assertive is not good either, because then there are no boundaries... you don't push a child's hand onto the stove to teach them to not touch it, that'd be awful... but at the same time, if they really want to touch it... well... you could just let them.

    i can't remember where i read it, but there was this kinda-cheesy chain letter sent around a while ago that kind of expresses my take on things...

    aha

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Pitts, from "People Who Live At The End of Dirt Roads"
    What I'd Like For My Grandchildren

    We tried so hard to make things better for our kids that we made them worse. For my grandchildren, I'd like better:

    I'd really like for them to know about hand-me-down clothes and homemade ice cream and leftover meat loaf sandwiches.

    I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and that you learn honesty by being cheated.

    I hope you learn to make your own bed and mow the lawn and wash the car.

    And I really hope nobody gives you a brand new car when you are sixteen.

    It will be good if at least one time you can see puppies born and your old dog put to sleep.

    I hope you get a black eye fighting for something you believe in.

    I hope you have to share a bedroom with your younger brother. And it's all right if you have to draw a line down the middle of the room, but when he wants to crawl under the covers with you because he's scared, I hope you let him.

    When you want to see a movie and your little brother wants to tag along, I hope you'll let him.

    I hope you have to walk uphill to school with your friends and that you live in a town where you can do it safely.

    On rainy days when you have to catch a ride, I hope you don't ask your driver to drop you two blocks away so you won't be seen riding with someone as uncool as your Mom.

    If you want a slingshot, I hope your Dad teaches you how to make one instead of buying one.

    I hope you learn to dig in the dirt and read books.

    When you learn to use computers, I hope you also learn to add and subtract in your head.

    I hope you get teased by your friends when you have your first crush on a girl, and when you talk back to your mother that you learn what ivory soap tastes like.

    May you skin your knee climbing a mountain, burn your hand on a stove and stick your tongue on a frozen flagpole.

    I don't care if you try a beer once, but I hope you don't like it. And if a friend offers you dope or a joint, I hope you realize he is not your friend.

    I sure hope you make time to sit on a porch with your Grandpa and go fishing with your Uncle.

    May you feel sorrow at a funeral and joy during the holidays.

    I hope your mother punishes you when you throw a baseball through your neighbor's window and that she hugs you and kisses you at Christmastime when you give her a plaster mold of your hand.

    These things I wish for you - tough times and disappointment, hard work and happiness. To me, it's the only way to appreciate life.

    Written with a pen. Sealed with a kiss.
    haha, i remember this girl in my elementary school... i was in 4th grade on a hiking trip with the girl scouts... this one chick wore a new outfit and a hairbow and her perfectly white shoes... and she didn't want to walk because she might get dirt on her clothes... and then when her shoelace came undone, she demanded for my dad (who was chaperoning) to tie it - like literally commanded him to tie it... and when he told her she needed to take care of it herself, we found out that she couldn't because her mom always tied her shoes so her fingers wouldn't get dirty...

    And again, why one or the other?
    dude, because you're turning it into a freaking binary. i'm just trying to give another perspective... you think i'm saying black and white, to me it was like, you have yellow, here's blue. blue is different because it's darker and cooler and etc. there's red too though. and a bazillion more colors. just cause i didn't mention other cases doesn't mean they don't exist... i'm just focusing on the general group that i've run into frequently in my own life... you are the only person setting up a binary here.

    i'm not addressing the rest. the only one who is having trouble getting beyond a bidirectional perspective is yourself. you came into the thread with that perspective and you've clearly read my posts through it. surprise, you're not the only one who recognizes that life is in full color. we just don't all feel the need to state (and harp) on the obvious.

    wish there was an emoticon for "bristling"... ugh...

  4. #74
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    9 times out of 10, I see tough love pushing kids to rebel or giving them crushed self-esteems. They hit 18 & their goody goody facade shatters & they leave home to do everything mom & dad forbid them because they were too rigid, too demanding, too pushy as parents. Or the kids never go anywhere in life because they feel worthless & incapable, because nothing was ever enough, they were not shown enough kindness or praise because their parents was trying to make them tough, and they were pushed to do things they were not naturally good at while having their natural strengths downplayed.
    That's exactly true and happened to my ESFP cousin. I have never been to FBI office myself but I got to for bailing her out. And yes, she is everything orangeappled described.

    I happened to be the opposite. I was blessed for having an ISFP Mom who would do everything to protect me, and to a point I got quite spoiled (especially when it comes to my temper). This has a huge effect on my pesonal development, especially being an INFJ. Though I always felt she's trying to compensate me from getting abused by my dad (who I wish to know what type he is but couldn't as they both splitted when I turned 12).

    I would say if my mother applied tough love at me, I may eventually end up doing all the wild things as my cousin. Which is not pretty at all.

  5. #75

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    Edited blank for being a total moron

  6. #76
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I have some difficulty reading this thread, probably mostly due to time, but partially due to the material.

    I've heard much worse than my childhood. However, one might say I grew up in abuse. It was mostly verbal, with a little physical and sexual abuse. My father was sort of a raging, "people of the lie", alcoholic, who predominantly spoke to me (according my recollection) in a stream of sardonic ridicule. Nothing positive was ever said to me until my late 20's. If I met one bar, then the bar was raised overnight. It was constantly a focus on what I wasn't doing, with little or no positive affirmations. I was a child expected to act like an adult, not cry, not be afraid of the dark, chop the firewood, do the chores, etc. The response on failing to stop crying, being afraid of the dark, not doing the chore, or whatever was physical abuse. Mostly the threat was enough, but sometimes things got physical.

    Thus, even today, I'm starved for little crumbs of approval, and will practically work myself to death to get them. My work ethic is strong. I wouldn't say I'm disciplined, rather my sister became the ulta-disciplined super human. My other sister became the lost child who ran away since she was 14, living sometimes with boy friends.

    After many years of therapy, including around five or six hospitalizations for depression, I'm probably stable. I don't believe I'll ever need to be hospitalized again, though I think suicide is still a possibility at some point.

    Many people have mentioned relationships in this thread. Well, I guess I've never had one, so I'm like the 40 year old virgin, basically. I'm doubtful that I will have one. Also, for about five years, I've basically been devoid of social groups.

    At times, I went to 12 step meetings and church a lot. Yet, I've not really done so since I moved to the area where I live now 5 1/2 years ago. Also, I'm somewhat agnostic now...a separate issue. I'm sort of a person without a country. Socially speaking I really should move to a town, but my job feels like I have a mad dog by the ears. I'm afraid to let go of the dog. I'm afraid of leaving this oasis and crossing the desert to finding another job. Also, I feel I have nobody, no God, and very few friends, and fewer still who would help in a real practical way.

    I guess I wasn't able to "rise to the occasion" and become the giant, amazing genius-millionaire-doctor or whatever. Actually, I was supposed to become a military officer and go through a change where the INFP (or whatever) dies, and I become a man, but I failed. I resigned my appointment to the military academy after 14 days, wherein I ruined all my uniforms, showed up late, and broke down sobbing.

    "I knew you'd never make it. I was expecting a call any day.", says the father.

    "Then why'd you drill it into me that I should do this?", I thought.

    Now, at 40, I have no real relationships, and the job is going really badly...partially because of the economy. I should make a separate thread or two. Sorry for rambling.

    Okay, I think I'll go have a Stuart Smalley affirmation moment, and go back to my video game and cheetos. (Just kidding on the cheetos part )

  7. #77
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    OKay...maybe a more constructive post.

    scenario:
    My niece wants my hat. Me: I hold the hat higher. I put the hat under me and sit on it. This goes on. My sister (the mother): Pow! Swat the child's hand, the behavior stops.

    How would you do it?

    I think both my sisters use time out for their children. Hand swatting is very unusual. Also, I'm not aware if my other sister ever used anything physical at all.

    Another scenario:
    Once when I was working at the grocery store, a toddler was grabbing fists full of gravel with ashes from the ash tray...maybe a few cigarette butts, and putting it in his mouth. I held the arm...not forcefully. The child didn't cry. The mom started: "Don't you touch my child!" Okay, I agree. Fine. What would you do? Just let the child eat the rocks? At the moment I saw the kid was about to eat the ash tray gravel, I wasn't clear who the child's parent was.

    Another scenario:
    Three women with a hive of children. We are in line to see something. The line is about an hour wait. The kids are circling me and asking questions, like I'm the new father. I've never met these people before. Next, one of the young teen boys hauls off and slugs the other boy seriously. I held them apart and said: "Enough of that."

    The Mom, who had the word "Control Freak" in silver glitter letters literally written on the front of her t-shirt. "WhoA! Their Mom is here. Don't you touch my kids!"

    Me: "Sorry. I only wanted to stop them hurting one another."

    Her: "Mind your own fucking business."

    How would you handle this? If you see two kids fighting, what would you do? What would you do if the kids seemed to be trying to develop rapport for 30 minutes before this happened?

    Of course, all sorts of scenarios of what I should have done or said played out.

    *sigh*

    I need an ENFP defender or possibly a lawyer sometimes.

  8. #78
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    *not pretending to be an authority on children or anything... these are just my thoughts...

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    OKay...maybe a more constructive post.

    scenario:
    My niece wants my hat. Me: I hold the hat higher. I put the hat under me and sit on it. This goes on. My sister (the mother): Pow! Swat the child's hand, the behavior stops.

    How would you do it?

    I think both my sisters use time out for their children. Hand swatting is very unusual. Also, I'm not aware if my other sister ever used anything physical at all.
    yeah, time out. removal from the situation. or put the hat up on a ledge or something and ignore her if she complains, but give her good attention once she's redirected herself to something positive. and/or find her a hat of her own to wear, if she wants.

    Another scenario:
    Once when I was working at the grocery store, a toddler was grabbing fists full of gravel with ashes from the ash tray...maybe a few cigarette butts, and putting it in his mouth. I held the arm...not forcefully. The child didn't cry. The mom started: "Don't you touch my child!" Okay, I agree. Fine. What would you do? Just let the child eat the rocks? At the moment I saw the kid was about to eat the ash tray gravel, I wasn't clear who the child's parent was.
    i would have done the same. and informed the parent that he could go right back to eating the ashes out of the ash tray if she would prefer (in which case i would be more than happy to call poison control and DSS) <- though i'd leave that latter part out if i were an employee

    Another scenario:
    Three women with a hive of children. We are in line to see something. The line is about an hour wait. The kids are circling me and asking questions, like I'm the new father. I've never met these people before. Next, one of the young teen boys hauls off and slugs the other boy seriously. I held them apart and said: "Enough of that."

    The Mom, who had the word "Control Freak" in silver glitter letters literally written on the front of her t-shirt. "WhoA! Their Mom is here. Don't you touch my kids!"

    Me: "Sorry. I only wanted to stop them hurting one another."

    Her: "Mind your own fucking business."

    How would you handle this? If you see two kids fighting, what would you do? What would you do if the kids seemed to be trying to develop rapport for 30 minutes before this happened?

    Of course, all sorts of scenarios of what I should have done or said played out.

    *sigh*

    I need an ENFP defender or possibly a lawyer sometimes.
    i think your action was fine there. if their mother is here, she should be taking care of the situation and not allowing her children to harass a stranger, much less cause a public scene.

    essentially with these situations i just think to myself, if a police officer were to be watching the situation, would it be okay? and i think in both of your situations, yes, it would be fine. in the first you were preventing the child from ingesting something very harmful. in an ideal world, you would not have to touch the child, but realistically, what else was to be done? run screaming and yelling in his direction? that would have been ridiculous. you did the most logical thing. in the second you were discouraging physical violence. it seems to me that in both situations the parents were negligent to some extent. were they in full control of their children and you intervened, it would be legitimate of them to say something, but they clearly did not have a hold on their own children. this is understandable, of course, children are a handful, but that also means the parents really don't have any right to snap at you.

    imo, in those situations, most of the time the parents are just pissy that they aren't capable of watching their own children, on top of being annoyed that their children are acting inappropriately, and that compounds to make them snap when someone else interacts in a different way than they would with their child.

  9. #79
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    OKay...maybe a more constructive post.

    scenario:
    My niece wants my hat. Me: I hold the hat higher. I put the hat under me and sit on it. This goes on. My sister (the mother): Pow! Swat the child's hand, the behavior stops.

    How would you do it?

    I think both my sisters use time out for their children. Hand swatting is very unusual. Also, I'm not aware if my other sister ever used anything physical at all.
    Ah. you started a game here and the little girl kept playing. I would have taken your hat, looked firmly at the girl, and said "It isnt a game. Leave Uncle Baj alone." If she insisted, I would have had her play elsewhere. Hand swats can be VERY effective for certain things. I will use a hand swat when it is something dangerous or I need to get immediate attention. Physical punishment worked poorly on my older son, an enfp, as he was so pulled by impulse, but little hand swats like this are extremely effective on the INTJ son, who is often quite methodical in what he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Another scenario:
    Once when I was working at the grocery store, a toddler was grabbing fists full of gravel with ashes from the ash tray...maybe a few cigarette butts, and putting it in his mouth. I held the arm...not forcefully. The child didn't cry. The mom started: "Don't you touch my child!" Okay, I agree. Fine. What would you do? Just let the child eat the rocks? At the moment I saw the kid was about to eat the ash tray gravel, I wasn't clear who the child's parent was.
    Better to say loudly "Oh honey that's so gross. oh dear, is mom around here?" to get the attention of other people. Mom's nowdays are paranoid about people messing with their kids, especially the little ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by BAJ View Post
    Another scenario:
    Three women with a hive of children. We are in line to see something. The line is about an hour wait. The kids are circling me and asking questions, like I'm the new father. I've never met these people before. Next, one of the young teen boys hauls off and slugs the other boy seriously. I held them apart and said: "Enough of that."

    The Mom, who had the word "Control Freak" in silver glitter letters literally written on the front of her t-shirt. "WhoA! Their Mom is here. Don't you touch my kids!"

    Me: "Sorry. I only wanted to stop them hurting one another."

    Her: "Mind your own fucking business."

    How would you handle this? If you see two kids fighting, what would you do? What would you do if the kids seemed to be trying to develop rapport for 30 minutes before this happened?
    Kids, especially boys will fight, both in a playful sense and in a mean sense. I tend to ignore mine fighting unless I hear real crying begin. They need to be able to work through conflict and disagreement on their own, with guidance and feedback from you, but not micromanagement. If the kids are being violent enough to cause you concern, then get their mom's attention-You can do this indirectly by exhibiting concern for the kid "Are you okay, wow, he hit you REALLY hard. You may want to check his eye, I think he might have bruised him." The kids were being disruptive in a public place bothering other people-it would also be valid to just tell the mom this, although I'd have a hard time doing so. If you cant find mom, stand up and speak loudly and forcefully to the kids to stop hurting each other, even getting between them, but again, I wouldnt touch them, unless you see one being severely harmed, as in headed to the hospital.

  10. #80
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    You have rules and expectations or else people will not take responsibility as they should, be it in supporting themselves, cleaning up after themselves, minding others, and so on.

    I'm not sure how tough you mean. Abuse isn't necessary, but firmness is of the utmost importance.

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