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  1. #61
    small potatoes NotOfTwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meek View Post
    But, how do you explain the women who have grown up in very loving families and end up with douche bag abusers?
    Culture shock?

    There is no acquired immunity to misjudging another person.
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  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    ^ I don't like to be hovered over nor kicked when I'm down (who does....). Again, I just don't see it so black & white......
    Did someone say it was black and white? I don't know which comment(s) you are even referring to... mine or someone else's.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Did someone say it was black and white? I don't know which comment(s) you are even referring to... mine or someone else's.
    ditto :/

    when i said i think some people respond better than others... of course there are still situations when it is more appropriate and less appropriate... i'm not going to engage in "tough love" when someone's kitten dies, geez... balance is always ideal



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    I think the tough love attitude trivializes the powerful effects of compassion, understanding, empathy & patience.
    i don't. if you haven't grown up with enough boundaries, sometimes "toughness" is a wonderful thing. being pushed to be independent. having someone expect something out of you. being told that you are powerful enough to fight against things. i like the idea of tough love because it suggests that love and pain can coexist, which is true. sometimes you have to endure medicine to get over an illness; sometimes you have to endure waiting for an option to be available; sometimes you have to endure abject cold to see the northern lights. a child who learns this will be better able to face the world than a child who is bubblewrapped in affection.

    there's a big difference between "tough love", and abuse and neglect.

    let's go to the gods of the internet:

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Tough love is an expression used when someone treats another person harshly or sternly with the intent to help them in the long run.

    [...] In most uses, there must be some actual love or feeling of affection behind the harsh or stern treatment to be defined as tough love.
    interestingly:

    There is evidence to suggest that what the British call tough love can be beneficial in the development of preferred character trait in children up to five years old. However, the British definition used by these researchers is more similar to the concept of "authoritative" parenting, whereas American ideas about tough love are closer to the notion of "authoritarian" parenting, which has been linked with negative outcomes in other research
    clear boundaries = good
    cruelty = bad

  4. #64
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Seems like most things have been illuminated in this thread... but I want to speak in defense of the ENTJ who has essentially adopted you. (Note in advance: it's possible that I misinterpreted him, and I apologize if I did.)

    Yes, I understand, from a post you made before, that this ENTJ can be annoying, in that you feel like he suffocates you with all his rules. But at the same time, nothing he said (that you mentioned) is abusive, or tough love. Unless there's a whole lot of information you haven't given, then your second dad has done absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, I related a lot to him, regarding what he said to you about feeling drained. Te-doms don't have much capacity for that; they really, really try, but it can get to a point when it almost feels like you're being physically hurt by other people's emotions, and all you want is to get out of there and be alone for a while to calm down. Instead of doing something ridiculous like that, he opened up to you -- which is a big thing and not something to be dismissed -- and respectfully explained his feelings to you. I understand, what with your family history, how you could misinterpret his actions as being selfish and hurtful, but at the same time I feel like he really sincerely cares for you, and all he was doing was talking to you on his level. He was doing what he would have done to a friend (presumably) -- being perfectly honest with them in the hopes of avoiding future conflict and discomfort.

    So I guess I'm saying... although his method of communication may be different from yours, don't take him for granted. He loves you. He cares deeply for you. He is there for you and trusts you enough to be emotionally open. I know you would prefer love in an Fe style, but remember: he has done nothing to hurt you. He has not abused you. He loves you. He is there for you. And that's what matters.

    /rambling
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Seems like most things have been illuminated in this thread... but I want to speak in defense of the ENTJ who has essentially adopted you. (Note in advance: it's possible that I misinterpreted him, and I apologize if I did.)

    Yes, I understand, from a post you made before, that this ENTJ can be annoying, in that you feel like he suffocates you with all his rules. But at the same time, nothing he said (that you mentioned) is abusive, or tough love. Unless there's a whole lot of information you haven't given, then your second dad has done absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, I related a lot to him, regarding what he said to you about feeling drained. Te-doms don't have much capacity for that; they really, really try, but it can get to a point when it almost feels like you're being physically hurt by other people's emotions, and all you want is to get out of there and be alone for a while to calm down. Instead of doing something ridiculous like that, he opened up to you -- which is a big thing and not something to be dismissed -- and respectfully explained his feelings to you. I understand, what with your family history, how you could misinterpret his actions as being selfish and hurtful, but at the same time I feel like he really sincerely cares for you, and all he was doing was talking to you on his level. He was doing what he would have done to a friend (presumably) -- being perfectly honest with them in the hopes of avoiding future conflict and discomfort.

    So I guess I'm saying... although his method of communication may be different from yours, don't take him for granted. He loves you. He cares deeply for you. He is there for you and trusts you enough to be emotionally open. I know you would prefer love in an Fe style, but remember: he has done nothing to hurt you. He has not abused you. He loves you. He is there for you. And that's what matters.

    /rambling
    That's what I was trying to say in one of my earliest posts, that ENTJs show love differently and that doesn't mean he's doing anything "wrong" and certainly not abusive.

    One of the things that I actually like about Keirsey (although I complain about him often) is that he touches on the preferred parenting styles of each temperament: he calls SJ "authoritarian" and that was definitely my experiences of my SJs from what I've already described; he calls SPs "liberating" and my mother is absolutely like that, when we were growing up what we heard was "Marmie's Mom's kids are wild" and my sisters who were with my mother more even complained about her lack of boundaries (but she did set some boundaries and she does discipline I don't mean to make her sound completely neglectful), but it makes her great as a parent as an adult, because she's like "oh ha ha that's cool you should try that, whatever makes you happy, you can do it" and she laughs about things that my SJs would have completely freaked out about...she's sympathetic and accepting; NFs are the most likely to do the "friend parent" thing because they want to empathetically bond with their children, and I've witnessed a couple of NF mothers on this forum talking about that non-parenting un-schooling stuff and letting kids create their own ...yeah, anyway, I'm not a fan but yes I can see NFs leaning toward that; and NTs like to encourage "individualism" i.e. the autonomy you're complaining about being thrust on you by ENTJ, and may be more pragmatic and logical about parenting, choosing to back of from big emotional scenes yet encouraging your unique intelligence and skills.

    REALLY LEAVING NOW. I SWEAR.

  6. #66
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    My mother was a great believer in Tough love. That's what she called it. It was controlling and abusive. Any other parent would think I was dream kid.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  7. #67
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Did someone say it was black and white? I don't know which comment(s) you are even referring to... mine or someone else's.
    It's very much been implied by many posters continually contrasting tough love with the overly nice huggy parent who doesn't discipline, as if that's the only alternative. The arrow was meant to point up at skylights post concerning wanting tough love or comforting (I must've posted while the others were being posted also). As an INFP, I never wanted to be coddled, nor would tough love have worked with me. There's a middle ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i don't. if you haven't grown up with enough boundaries, sometimes "toughness" is a wonderful thing. being pushed to be independent. having someone expect something out of you. being told that you are powerful enough to fight against things. i like the idea of tough love because it suggests that love and pain can coexist, which is true. sometimes you have to endure medicine to get over an illness; sometimes you have to endure waiting for an option to be available; sometimes you have to endure abject cold to see the northern lights. a child who learns this will be better able to face the world than a child who is bubblewrapped in affection.
    It trivializes those things because it implies they are not strong & powerful. That only being tough, harsh, rigid, demanding, is what accomplishes anything, and that this is what the world is & will always be. It's a lack of faith of the parent in love, one they are passing down to their child.

    All of the things you mention here can be done without harshness or sternness (to use your quoted definition of tough love). You can let your child know all of those things while still being mild & understanding in your approach. How can you help a child overcome fear if you don't understand where it's even coming from? To just push them without knowing where the crack in their armor seems almost irresponsible to me.

    And again, why one or the other? Why is it only tough love or "bubblewrapped affection"? What about an encouraging parent who provides structure & communicates instead of leaving their child to "realize" years later they were doing them a "favor" (such a common statement from tough love recipients)? I remember many times my mom telling me she was expecting me to do something on my own so I would learn, and never in a dismissive "suck it up" tone.

    But that (the "not enough boundaries" part above) supports exactly what I thought about many instances of tough love I've witnessed - it's a frustrated, desperate act of a parent who failed to love & discipline adequately to begin with. It's not unusual for it to come from a person who was once too lenient; these people don't know balance.

    there's a big difference between "tough love", and abuse and neglect.
    I don't think tough love is abuse or not out of love, but I think it's misguided.

    let's go to the gods of the internet:

    Tough love is an expression used when someone treats another person harshly or sternly with the intent to help them in the long run.

    [...] In most uses, there must be some actual love or feeling of affection behind the harsh or stern treatment to be defined as tough love.
    Harsh definitely implies excess. That's the exact problem with tough love (and too nice parenting): EXCESS.


    interestingly:

    There is evidence to suggest that what the British call tough love can be beneficial in the development of preferred character trait in children up to five years old. However, the British definition used by these researchers is more similar to the concept of "authoritative" parenting, whereas American ideas about tough love are closer to the notion of "authoritarian" parenting, which has been linked with negative outcomes in other research
    clear boundaries = good
    cruelty = bad
    Well I'm American, so I have the latter connotations. It's obviously a semantics issue, and also a "know it when you see it" thing. Boundaries does not equal "tough" to me.

    9 times out of 10, I see tough love pushing kids to rebel or giving them crushed self-esteems. They hit 18 & their goody goody facade shatters & they leave home to do everything mom & dad forbid them because they were too rigid, too demanding, too pushy as parents. Or the kids never go anywhere in life because they feel worthless & incapable, because nothing was ever enough, they were not shown enough kindness or praise because their parents was trying to make them tough, and they were pushed to do things they were not naturally good at while having their natural strengths downplayed.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #68
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    I think there is a huge difference between expecting things out of your child, and expecting too much.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

  9. #69
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I think everyone is operating from a different assumption of what "tough love" means. Both in terms of what specific actions it entails, how "tough" we're talking, the context of the relationship, the tone of voice and body language used, the circumstances under which it's used, whether it's situational or a consistent strategy, whether it's used universally, etc etc etc. Seriously, it seems to range anywhere from "you're a drug addict; therefore I will not give you cash for your habit" to "you're crying because someone is bullying you? shut up asshole, I don't want to see that crap".

    I just see everyone talking by each other and everyone's saying the same general thing yet somehow disagreeing because the assumptions are all different.
    -end of thread-

  10. #70
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I think everyone is operating from a different assumption of what "tough love" means. Both in terms of what specific actions it entails, how "tough" we're talking, the context of the relationship, the tone of voice and body language used, the circumstances under which it's used, whether it's situational or a consistent strategy, whether it's used universally, etc etc etc. Seriously, it seems to range anywhere from "you're a drug addict; therefore I will not give you cash for your habit" to "you're crying because someone is bullying you? shut up asshole, I don't want to see that crap".

    I just see everyone talking by each other and everyone's saying the same general thing yet somehow disagreeing because the assumptions are all different.
    yes, agreed.

    As to the OP question of tough love...

    With my children I often put on the tough love hat, as I learned myself growing up that I had to become independent and self sufficient and i recognize they need that as well. Quite hysterically, my ISTP ex says I am the "mean parent" to my older enfp son, but the INTJ I am dating says I am far too sweet to my little INTJ 4 yo.

    Outside of abuse, I suspect one person's love is another's tough love and even another's emotional devaluement.

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