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  1. #51
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    Hmm. Everyone has made a lot of valid points in this thread and I had no idea it would even go this far, lol.

    I do want to say that reading this thread has opened my eyes a bit, because I've been in this tight space in my mind
    that has been telling me that tough love is crap. I have been seeing black and white because I've been abused
    and my parents used that word as a justification to abuse me. It gets confusing over the years. Brain washing commences.

    The abortion topic I mentioned- Don't reply to that. That is an endless argument. It's like arguing about religions, lol. Never ending. >.<

    Have any of you noticed any sort of connection with kids growing up abused, and being in abusive relationships?
    I've known some women who grew up without abuse or violence etc but have ended up with abusive pricks.

    Tough love, love etc, it's different for everyone but I have a wall up in front of me so it's difficult to see the different
    colors and landscapes that I should be seeing.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

  2. #52
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meek View Post
    Have any of you noticed any sort of connection with kids growing up abused, and being in abusive relationships?
    I've known some women who grew up without abuse or violence etc but have ended up with abusive pricks.
    I think it happens because people drift toward what is familiar, when they are unsure of what to do or where to go. There's a comfort there, even if the situation sucks; at least you know what is coming next. Also, it might feel "normal" compared to something new and fifferent. (For example, "intimacy" demands vulnerability and thus can be perceived as scary... yet ultimately it's an ideal if you can find someone trustworthy to open up to.)

    Growing up in a crappy situation sometimes provides you wisdom along with the baggage.
    Some people who grew up in seemingly good families make poor decisions as adults.

    (My mom is a good example of this. She grew up in a patriarchal religious family, where everyone did take care of each other and she was cared for. However, she was never challenged to think for herself, she just assumed that someone else would look out for her... and when she married my dad, she discovered she was on her own, and had NOTHING she could fall back on in order to make sense of her relationship with him.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #53
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I remember watching this docu thing about a woman who lost her leg when she was a girl and how when she first started walking with her prosthetic leg and fell down she felt so angry that that her mother did not come to help her up. But, she realized later that her mother was forcing her to learn to be independent and literally pick herself up and get used to life with a prosthetic leg. I think she sounded grateful as an adult. I think it probably killed her mom not to pick up her daughter but sometimes you have to short out gut instinct of what you think is helping or nuturing or caring and think about the longer term and bigger picture to what is truly best for your child. That woman is kinda a celebrity and goes around the world doing marathons and public speaking. She has blond hair. I forgot her name.
    Why not communicate that then? Why not tell your child instead of leaving them to wonder why? How hard is it to say, "I'm not helping you because you need to learn to get up yourself since I won't always be around to help you."


    The idea of not being a 'tough love' parent to me is too often a cry of parents wanting to be friends with their kids instead of their parents and sacrificing discipline and respect for a temporary smile, so it doesn't hold a lot of water to me.
    This a false dichotomy. It's not like "tough love" or "too nice friend-parent" are the only options. BOTH are lazy parenting, IMO.

    I think the tough love attitude trivializes the powerful effects of compassion, understanding, empathy & patience. That entire attitude is reflected in how the world in general works (violence, cruelty, selfishness) & it's perpetuated with every generation told they have to adapt to it instead of rejecting it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #54
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    just want to point out that i think some people are naturally more receptive to tough love than others. me myself, i don't like heaps of comforting. it makes me feel, ironically, uncomfortable. i'd rather have someone be very frank with me, though supportive. but i've spoken with an INFP who feels totally the opposite.

  5. #55
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    Have any of you noticed any sort of connection with kids growing up abused, and being in abusive relationships?
    I've known some women who grew up without abuse or violence etc but have ended up with abusive pricks.
    There is definitely a correlation between the two. Everyone has a choice though, even if they don't realize it at first.

    I have a friend who's real dad abandoned her and her mom when she was fairly young. She has always flitted from one relationship to the next. The guy she latched onto the most last year was (imo) a copy of her real dad... Good looking guy (if you like the bald genie type), who partied a lot, had a daughter from a previous relationship, and completely unreliable. She was convinced he was "the one." After many long talks I finally convinced her to get some counseling, and thanks to her hard work there she has moved onto a much healthier relationship.

    Tough love, love etc, it's different for everyone but I have a wall up in front of me so it's difficult to see the different
    colors and landscapes that I should be seeing.
    Just keep chipping away at it bit by bit. It will eventually crumble.

  6. #56
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    just want to point out that i think some people are naturally more receptive to tough love than others. me myself, i don't like heaps of comforting. it makes me feel, ironically, uncomfortable. i'd rather have someone be very frank with me, though supportive. but i've spoken with an INFP who feels totally the opposite.
    That's actually a good point, and even why sometimes we have flare-ups on this forum -- what people are giving and what people want/expect/respond to are sometimes two different things.

    For me, personally, it's more contextual... but I can't stand feeling smothered or babied. As long as you're respectful toward me and show an understanding of what I'm dealing with, I can handle someone just being blunt and telling me what they see and what they want. Sometimes too much care leaves everything far too fuzzy/mushy to perceive clearly.

    But there are others here who apparently didn't have people take as much care as they should have.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #57
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ I don't like to be hovered over nor kicked when I'm down (who does....). Again, I just don't see it so black & white......
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #58
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    just want to point out that i think some people are naturally more receptive to tough love than others. me myself, i don't like heaps of comforting. it makes me feel, ironically, uncomfortable. i'd rather have someone be very frank with me, though supportive. but i've spoken with an INFP who feels totally the opposite.
    I think everyone needs a good balance of both in their lives. Context REALLY helps.

    Sometimes when I am upset what I really do need is simply a hug, having someone listen to me, and then that's it. Othertimes I need a swift kick to my rearend.

    A good example I used in another thread happened a few months ago. I called my INTJ ex (we are still friends) to talk to him about my dad getting serious with another woman so soon after my mom died. Normally I like calling him when I have problems because he is so calm and collected and offers me a different perspective on things. This time he said something basically to the effect of he didn't think my parents loved each other and maybe I need to realize my dad might be happy my mom is dead. That was not the time to apply the swift kick to my behind. That was more of the time to say "yeah, I know this feels very overwhelming right now, but let's try to reframe this in the bigger picture."

  9. #59
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meek View Post
    Have any of you noticed any sort of connection with kids growing up abused, and being in abusive relationships?
    I've known some women who grew up without abuse or violence etc but have ended up with abusive pricks.
    Yes. Studies reveal major connections with this. I am a prefect example. While I am lucky in the fact that I don't tolerate people that are prone to physical/emotional/verbal abuse.. I grew up with a family that partied ALOT. My parents are very hippy-ish. And this had some far reaching affects on me that I have been combatting for years now. The bigest one being that I tend to get involved with heavy drinkers. Not totally dysfunctional, can't keep a job druggies.. but people that have drinking problems. After really looking at it, I figured out that it's because I was forced to tolerate and accept this as normal my whole life. It's not like I'm oblivious to this behavior.. no i see it right off the bat.. i just allow it to go, and go, and go.. when any normal person would put their foot down an decide to not become further involved, or put their foot down and say "your unhealthy and you need help" I ignore this behavior until it becomes overwhelming. I did this until my late-twenties. But here is the flip side to it. After recognizing this pattern and weakness, to off-set it I have built a major guard on it. I've heard that children of alcoholics tend to go one of two ways.. they either take on an overly responsible, no drinking of any kind role, or they repeat the pattern. And I can't seem to find a balance. So I've taken the no bullshit-very minimal drinking, feel uncomfortable when people get too fucked up attitude. My hippy parents have started calling me the drill sargeant, and hiding things they do from me (like smoking pot with my younger brother WTF!) I am not truly happy with this approach either, because I hate being seen as moral high-horsing and having a stick up my ass. I am much more laid back with people I trust and know can drink and be okay. But it just seems like I can't strike a balance in myself. This is a deep seeded issue, something I'd probably have to do to psycho-therapy to correct negative thought patterns on drinking. And perhaps some day I will do that.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  10. #60
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Yes. Studies reveal major connections with this. I am a prefect example. While I am lucky in the fact that I don't tolerate people that are prone to physical/emotional/verbal abuse.. I grew up with a family that partied ALOT. My parents are very hippy-ish. And this had some far reaching affects on me that I have been combatting for years now. The bigest one being that I tend to get involved with heavy drinkers. Not totally dysfunctional, can't keep a job druggies.. but people that have drinking problems. After really looking at it, I figured out that it's because I was forced to tolerate and accept this as normal my whole life. It's not like I'm oblivious to this behavior.. no i see it right off the bat.. i just allow it to go, and go, and go.. when any normal person would put their foot down an decide to not become further involved, or put their foot down and say "your unhealthy and you need help" I ignore this behavior until it becomes overwhelming. I did this until my late-twenties. But here is the flip side to it. After recognizing this pattern and weakness, to off-set it I have built a major guard on it. I've heard that children of alcoholics tend to go one of two ways.. they either take on an overly responsible, no drinking of any kind role, or they repeat the pattern. And I can't seem to find a balance. So I've taken the no bullshit-very minimal drinking, feel uncomfortable when people get too fucked up attitude. My hippy parents have started calling me the drill sargeant, and hiding things they do from me (like smoking pot with my younger brother WTF!) I am not truly happy with this approach either, because I hate being seen as moral high-horsing and having a stick up my ass. I am much more laid back with people I trust and know can drink and be okay. But it just seems like I can't strike a balance in myself. This is a deep seeded issue, something I'd probably have to do to psycho-therapy to correct negative thought patterns on drinking. And perhaps some day I will do that.
    You sound much like me. My parents were hippies, as well. My dad would always tell me that if the smell of the smoke bothered me, to go outside. It's not the pot smoke that bothers me alone, it does but what pisses me off is inhaling it, it scares me and I start crying because if I inhale smoke of any kind, I get very sick and I feel like ice is going down my throat and through my stomach. I have acid reflux disease, a very bad case of it and I can't do that. I used to drink, I used to smoke pot and cigarettes growing up but I quit that three years ago.

    My dad stopped being an alcoholic last month, after 40 or more years of drinking. When I used to drink, there was always a point where I didn't want to because I started to feel like I formed a tolerance to alcohol. I wasn't getting drunk anymore, but that's when my ex would drink, he would drink three nights in a row or more and I could only do it for two, otherwise I felt nothing or I got too sick to drink anymore.

    I have however, found myself with guys who act like my dad did. My dad would hurt me then apologize within minutes, crying to me and a lot of the guys I've dated act that way. I admit, I have wanted a father figure boyfriend which seems very screwed up I think. It's not what I should want. Someone who is controlling and mean but kind, like an isfp or maybe a screwed up infp (Which I have dated)

    But, how do you explain the women who have grown up in very loving families and end up with douche bag abusers?
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

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