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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    This is how I learnt a great deal of my ways. I never really had to experience what it was like to fall. I saw what happened when others did and avoided doing that, however I will say that experience is almost inevitable if you walk outside and so you have to realize, or teach the child if that's how they learn as well that they will not know how badly something WILL hurt until they've experienced it and if you can reason that to them, then I don't think experience is very necessary.
    I am very much a person who had to learn "the hard way." As a teenager I wanted to try everything, as a young adult I wanted to experience things first hand instead of taking the wisdom of my elders, necessarily (it depended on the elder).

    I am somewhat of an experential learner, though I have read voraciously since I was a child. I don't believe another person's viewpoint is correct sometimes unless I've at least witnessed it (if not experienced it).

    There are exceptions, like smoking crack for example, but that's probably because I've still witnessed how insane crackheads are, first hand, and how it ruins people's lives.

    I was not nearly as rebellious as some children, some people are just off the charts unreasonable like "fuck you" and I wasn't like that. I wasn't incorrigible. BUT SOME KIDS ARE INCORRIGIBLE. Keep that in mind.

    I think I'm somewhere in between how you and OrangeAppled describe yourselves, and the more incorrigible risk taker.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    na
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  3. #33
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving View Post
    I wouldn't label what you described as "tough love". It's exactly what you said- neglect and abuse. To me, tough love is sitting down with someone, even a child, and addressing them like an adult. You don't need to cater to their every tender little whim, walking on eggshells and so on, but it doesn't mean to tell them to shut up or anything of that nature.
    Tough love can be as easy as trying to rationalize a situation out with your child, or teen, or friend, etc. Yes, it may be stern and forthright. Yes, it may not want to huggle all of the squishy guts out of you to make you feel better, but it damned well can be out of love if you are taking the time to really assess with the person at hand. To really get to the core of the issue, point them in the right direction mentally and emotionally, and create a more beneficial solution. Is it like this always? Hell no. The point here is to find balance, and to figure out which situations call for a proper version of tough love, and which situations just require someone being there to console. Both should still be involved, and should still attempt to accomplish something positive without the negativity that abuse/neglect would provide.
    Also, do not forget that people are human, and parents are human. As humans, we are not perfect specimens. We can strive to be, but expect mistakes and fumbles along the way. Expect that parents themselves may both need proper tough love and proper easy love that they may not be getting themselves.

    Btw, I think the abortion example is godawful, and an entirely different topic. Typically, teenage mothers bring children into situations that are not ideal. Typically, the parents of teen mothers are not only emotional support, but become financial support amongst many other things. I can see the apprehension. It just sounds ridiculously flawed. The parents of the teen have to take responsibility for the teen's responsibility of the teen's potential spawn? Is it right to expect the parents to overextend themselves if the child is kept, because that is supposedly "love". Would they be exhibiting "tough love" if they said they weren't going to pave the yellow brick road for their kid, since it was their kid's choice?
    You've also made it sound like abortion isn't a correct option by any means, which makes my skin crawl. I think trying to convince your teen to have a baby when they don't want to is just as wrong as trying to convince them to not have one. Your sentiment seemed to negate that abortion is one of those choices that teens can make, and isn't just the option that their parents choose for them.
    We are on the same page here. Perhaps the confusion of "tough love" is that it needs to be defined.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  4. #34
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I am very much a person who had to learn "the hard way." As a teenager I wanted to try everything, as a young adult I wanted to experience things first hand instead of taking the wisdom of my elders, necessarily (it depended on the elder).

    I am somewhat of an experential learner, though I have read voraciously since I was a child. I don't believe another person's viewpoint is correct sometimes unless I've at least witnessed it (if not experienced it).

    There are exceptions, like smoking crack for example, but that's probably because I've still witnessed how insane crackheads are, first hand, and how it ruins people's lives.

    I was not nearly as rebellious as some children, some people are just off the charts unreasonable like "fuck you" and I wasn't like that. I wasn't incorrigible. BUT SOME KIDS ARE INCORRIGIBLE. Keep that in mind.

    I think I'm somewhere in between how you and OrangeAppled describe yourselves, and the more incorrigible risk taker.
    I was a rather meek child and was raised by FJ's, so I imagine if I hadn't been so controlled myself I would've learnt how to be one way or the other. See I was never one for experiencing things... Perhaps this is why I am not really Sensing dominant, but I respect and kind of wished I could learn that way. There is almost a fear of experiencing things at some point if you've never done so and a child needs that experience to avoid this paranoia. I don't know if this is tough love so much as guidance like I said earlier.

  5. #35
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i believe in unconditional love coupled with operant conditioning.

    sometimes it's tough, but it's always love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving
    The point here is to find balance, and to figure out which situations call for a proper version of tough love, and which situations just require someone being there to console. Both should still be involved, and should still attempt to accomplish something positive without the negativity that abuse/neglect would provide.
    Also, do not forget that people are human, and parents are human. As humans, we are not perfect specimens. We can strive to be, but expect mistakes and fumbles along the way. Expect that parents themselves may both need proper tough love and proper easy love that they may not be getting themselves.


    edit -

    meek - i get what you're saying in the OP and i definitely think it's true that self-serving behavior masquerading as "tough love" is harmful to a child. but at the same time... i believe in "tough love" in the sense that doing the best thing for your child doesn't always mean making them feel safe and happy.

    what your parents did - i'm very sorry for that - that wasn't love, to hurt you or to tell you to shut up. you're right; that's abuse. but my parents were at the other end of the spectrum - too much coddling and too little discipline. i know this because i'm struggling with the effects of it in myself and i see it in my younger sibling, as well. i wish we'd had more "tough love", honestly, because sometimes dealing with the world seems very hard and unfair when you have been so sheltered and protected. i left the wonderful safety and happiness of childhood and suddenly the world seems so harsh and awful. it's defeating.

    but a good example of healthy "tough love", i think - i was in the grocery store yesterday when a man bought a cupcake for his maybe 2-year-old child to eat later, at home. there were free cookies for children (and skylightses), but the child did not want the cookie; he wanted the cupcake. he cried and cried, and the dad just carried him around the store while he was crying. it sounded like the child was in abject pain, but i think the dad was doing exactly what needed to be done in that situation. if he'd given the child what the child had wanted, he'd learn that crying is the ticket to getting what he wants, and that he will get whatever he wants - neither good things for a child to learn. so he was miserable for the 30 minutes they were in the store - and maybe longer - but maybe eventually he realized that crying wasn't getting him anywhere, and that sometimes you just can't get what you want.

    the same goes for drug addicts. sometimes you need to tell an addict, i cannot live with you when you are like this. drug addiction alters brain chemistry, making it harder and harder for the person to overcome dependence. no matter how much you love that person, not establishing boundaries with them will just push them farther down the road of dependence. children need boundaries, and addicts do too. we all need boundaries for what we will and won't do for someone else so that they can decide how to deal with things.

    i think we all have a pretty good instinctual grip on what love is, though. love warms your heart and makes you feel okay, even when it's hurting. the dad in the store still held his little boy, even as that little boy cried and cried. clearly he loved him, but he chose not to give him everything because that's not the way the world works, and it's just going to hurt the little boy later on if he grows up thinking that it is. i do the same thing when i babysit - no, you can't have two desserts, but i'll hug you until you're done crying about it. that, to me, is tough love. it's not always fluffy and wonderful, and it's definitely not always easy. but it is unconditional.


    Quote Originally Posted by Meek
    I think abortion exists for parents who decide not to take responsibility to support their children emotionally.
    this is a very hurtful comment to me... i don't think you meant it that way, but... i think abortion exists as a last resort for women who recognize that they do not have the ability to provide sufficiently for their child. some may take advantage of the option, yes, but to have an abortion is never an easy decision. i think there is greater love in realizing that you will be a bad parent and that you should postpone or avoid having children than to go ahead and have the child regardless of how much you can reasonably provide for it.

    How would a parent enable their daughter if she got pregnant at 16?
    Why can't they sit their daughter down and explain to her that they love her
    oh, they can. but that doesn't mean that she doesn't need to take responsibility for her choice to have sex. i cannot imagine placing the responsibility of the child onto the grandparents - as in, the parents of the 16-year-old - it was never their choice to have sex, but the child would become their legal burden. it is a complex situation, certainly. if it were my daughter and i did not want to be responsible for a grandchild, i would probably give her the options of an abortion or giving the child up for adoption, and support her emotionally along the way. (not to mention i would be having a long talk with the baby daddy and his parents, as well.)
    Last edited by skylights; 06-28-2011 at 10:54 AM.

  6. #36
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I am very much a person who had to learn "the hard way." As a teenager I wanted to try everything, as a young adult I wanted to experience things first hand instead of taking the wisdom of my elders, necessarily (it depended on the elder).

    I am somewhat of an experential learner, though I have read voraciously since I was a child. I don't believe another person's viewpoint is correct sometimes unless I've at least witnessed it (if not experienced it).

    There are exceptions, like smoking crack for example, but that's probably because I've still witnessed how insane crackheads are, first hand, and how it ruins people's lives.

    I was not nearly as rebellious as some children, some people are just off the charts unreasonable like "fuck you" and I wasn't like that. I wasn't incorrigible. BUT SOME KIDS ARE INCORRIGIBLE. Keep that in mind.

    I think I'm somewhere in between how you and OrangeAppled describe yourselves, and the more incorrigible risk taker.
    That reminds me quite a bit of my ESFP sister. She had to touch the hot stove. It wasn't so much that I trusted the advice of my elders (I think all Pe types have a tendency to question the validity of the status-quo), as that was imply their own experience talking, but that I grasped the concept of hot without experiencing it myself.

    To me, experience (whether mine or another individual's) is trusted far less than theory, as it seems limited, just one small slice of the pie. Theory seems more universal in a way. There are definitely limits to theory also, pros & cons to both.
    I agree with ReflecTcelfeR's comments about paranoia/fear from lack of any experience. The Ne (and Ni) paranoia discussion in a recent thread just emphasizes the way N theorizing can become paranoid at times, when it's not anchored by any real experience.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    I was a rather meek child and was raised by FJ's, so I imagine if I hadn't been so controlled myself I would've learnt how to be one way or the other. See I was never one for experiencing things... Perhaps this is why I am not really Sensing dominant, but I respect and kind of wished I could learn that way. There is almost a fear of experiencing things at some point if you've never done so and a child needs that experience to avoid this paranoia. I don't know if this is tough love so much as guidance like I said earlier.
    I think reading gave me ideas. "This is interesting. Other people do it, why can't I." Same with television. So I'm not sure if that's Ne or Se. Many times I thought my STJs were being rule bound to a point of being non-sensical and unrealistic by the time I got to be a teenager. Like, hey those rules are nice but they don't necessarily apply to the situation. I felt like they had already made up their minds and just expected me to obey, o yay. And that totally worked on me until I was about twelve. I was relatively obedient during elementary school, I mostly got in trouble for things like talking or passing notes in school, nothing major, wanted to please adults at that age. I remember having more spunk and adventerousness though as a smaller child (climbing into cabinets I was told not to go into because there were Twinkies there, playing in the woods with my dog when I was told not too because I thought "the dog will protect me from any small animals, because this patch of wooded area isn't big enough for bears" ...of course, though, that was stupid because I woke up early one morning and my grandfather pointed out the window and there was a baby black bear in our back yard. But it took that! I had to see that bears could wander into our yard at 5 AM to really get the picture) and then that spunk and adventurousness came back by the time I was in high school, and I started to mellow out in my mid-twenties due mainly to life experience and I suppose brain maturity.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    I think my older sister taught me how to stand up for myself the most but she also beat me up in doing so.
    The reason I started fighting people is because I wanted to take all of my pain out on them.

    I was targeted in school, through out every grade and I'm not sure why. Perhaps I was the wounded animal
    and the survival instincts of the wolves kicked in and they attacked? I know, harsh metaphor but it's the only one I
    could think of at the moment.

    I also think the abortion topic should be made else where but I don't think it's a terrible idea since some babies kill mothers while coming out or some babies have life threatening diseases etc among other things. That's my view on it.

    Without being mistreated, I would be a better person today. I'm going to therapy for the abuse I've endured through out my life, and two weeks ago I slapped my boyfriend and started slapping him more because he was being mentally abusive and I got scared. I assumed he was being abusive, though but he really wasn't. It's how my brain operates because of the bullshit tough love my parents, friends, and family gave me. My one ex enfp friend used to tell me she wanted to give me tough love and used to write me notes like "I'm disappointed in you" When I was 24 and quit my job. I don't need that shit anymore and I will quickly lash out on anyone who tries it. It's something that has been burned into my brain by my parents and it's not needed so I don't believe in it.

    Like spanking a child, that isn't love, it's violence and parents who think it's not, are highly delusional and fucked up imo.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    That reminds me quite a bit of my ESFP sister. She had to touch the hot stove. It wasn't so much that I trusted the advice of my elders (I think all Pe types have a tendency to question the validity of the status-quo), as that was imply their own experience talking, but that I grasped the concept of hot without experiencing it myself.

    To me, experience (whether mine or another individual's) is trusted far less than theory, as it seems limited, just one small slice of the pie. Theory seems more universal in a way. There are definitely limits to theory also, pros & cons to both.
    I agree with ReflecTcelfeR's comments about paranoia/fear from lack of any experience. The Ne (and Ni) paranoia discussion in a recent thread just emphasizes the way N theorizing can become paranoid at times, when it's not anchored by any real experience.
    Yes I agree with all of the above, there has to be a balance of both. If you can't learn from advice or theory at all, that seems like a serious deficit. There is something more universal about theory, but then again only if it can be backed up by a broad range of experience, which is why scientists do observation samples on real people, et al.

    Both ways are valid, but I think a balance between the two is best.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Snail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meek View Post
    I think that real love is easy and should not be earned nor worked for.

    It comes to you from kindness and never from a fair weathered person.
    Tough love is just an excuse to project anger and frustration on your child or
    someone who is on drugs because you refuse to show unconditional love,
    because you are impatient and you give up because nothing seems to work..


    Ultimately, what most very sensitive people need is the love they need that works for them, and not what works for everyone else.

    Why would the word tough even have a connection with love when love has such a kind meaning with no harm in it's intent?

    I hear "Don't enable your child for his bad behavior"

    How would a parent enable their daughter if she got pregnant at 16?
    Why can't they sit their daughter down and explain to her that they love her
    and she can choose what she wants. I think abortion exists for parents who decide not to take responsibility to support their children emotionally.

    Children need support when they're growing up, because some of them grow up feeling unloved and bitter. When I would cry about something, my mother would slap my hand or my mouth or my face, or my dad would put his hand over my mouth and he would tell me to shut the fuck up because my crying was annoying.

    I was crying, for whatever reason it was happening for, I was still hurting and getting me to shut up just meant that it was "tough love" in his eyes, when it was abuse. I was a kid but I was still a human and deserved to express my emotions. Since, I've felt as though I've had to quiet my cries because they annoy people.

    When I hear someone crying, I have this need and instinct to rush to them and hold them, their sobbing is felt through me like lightning striking. I can't ignore it. It's painful for me and they need someone, they don't need to be turned away.

    Neglecting your child because they stress you out with their ''problems" or tears and stress is not tough love- That is neglect and failing to be there for them. I don't care if you're in a wheel chair. If you can talk, if you can listen, then you can love. You don't have to hug or touch them.

    Words can impact a person who is in pain, so be careful and it's never as easy as; "Get over it" or "It's not the end of the world" For some, it is the end of the world. People die because their feelings are invalidated and they're given tough love. Love is never tough.


    Love is Love.

    Thank you for posting this. I agree that love is never harmful or dismissive. Emotional neglect is a form of abuse.

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