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  1. #21
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I agree with this..... the people who counsel drug addicts through rehab & whatnot are not emotionally involved for a reason (not involved the way a family member would be anyway). If they're acting out of love, it's a love for humanity in general, not a personal love. When family/close friends are involved in such affairs, it often is just an expression of concern & love on their part to let the person know they are valued so they feel motivated to make changes (ie. interventions).

    I think there's a big difference between being firm & "tough love", which I see as abrasive, insensitive & coming from a selfish place. It's someone who doesn't want to be bothered or won't accept responsibility for some monster they creates, not a genuine interest in guiding a child or partner or whoever it is that needs some structure & emotional support.




    Agreed. A major role of the parent is to teach love, not to teach that the world is unkind. Everyone learns that fast enough, but they often don't learn is how to show love, compassion, sympathy, concern, etc.

    I wonder if those kids who laugh on the playground are being taught to be insensitive, without compassion, unloving, etc, because their parents think it's "tough love". I saw kids on the playground reach out to others when hurt; so not all are taught the same.



    I think this depends on the form of discipline. Discipline does not simply mean to punish or impose rules, but to teach & train how to deal with existing structure in the world & that there are consequences for negative actions. This can be done so lovingly of course. It doesn't have to be harsh or insensitive or squash individuality.
    I think love requires discipline when it comes to raising children but I think a parent can be understanding & still correct their child. Often, this makes the child more receptive to discipline anyway.
    Ah, sorry, didn't specify. I meant that disciplining with tough love by yelling at your child for doing drugs is not love.

    Sitting a child in time out is making it so they learn from their mistakes. I wish I had more time outs as a kid :/
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meek View Post
    To explain why I thought of writing this:
    My boyfriend's dad wanted to take on the role of being my second dad.
    He told me I can come to him any time I need to, when I am crying, stressed about anything that he is always here for me.
    The words "love dad" are always on my facebook wall by him.

    Well, recently he has started to complain that I stress him out too much with my problems and I wrote something on facebook like this:

    "I want to know something. What is the point of being a parent if you limit your emotional support for a child who just needs love? I now know there is such a thing as a fair weather parent."

    And he responded with; "Ever heard of tough love???" I guess I feel like I've been treated unfairly by him and he's made excuses to treat me like shit.
    ENTJs can love you in one way, but an ISFP will love you in another. I don't think it's about him being "fair weather" but about him being ENTJ.

    It's good to step back and assess the strengths and weaknesses of your individual parent, grandparent, or guardian, and see that they mean well but have a different definition of what's good for you.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think it is love. I am eternally grateful for the backbone my ISTJ grandfather gave me, and even for some of the toughness his ESTJ wife gave me, though I'm glad for the kindness and sensiitivity shown to me by my ISFJ grandmother who died when I was about six, and for the more easy going nature of my ESFP mother.

    Because of my backbone and toughness I can get through situations other people can't, adjust, defend myself, and I have less fear about chasing my dreams. I think that ability to not be fearful was instilled into my by ESTJ, who was the kind of parent who shoved you right back on the bike when you fell off.

    They made some mistakes, nobody is perfect, but I entirely credit the strength I have to STJs who did a lot of tough love stuff. They also balanced it with always providing in spades for my physical and intellectual needs (I had everything and then some, fancy toys I didn't need, nice clothes, and extra classes outside of school like dance and piano lessons) even if they weren't as emotionally soft and told me to toughen up sometimes when they should have been more understanding.

    But, like I said, I have my mom, and aunts, who were more soft or understanding.

    I can't say enough good things about teaching children to have a backbone and initiative. It's my own biased world view, though. I've always kind of had a distaste for extremely "sheltered" people.
    Not to down on your grandfather or grandmother, I'm sure they were loving but I think that with me, I have a backbone and can get through a lot of things others can't because they didn't experience the hardships I faced but, no parent should have to put their child through the hardships. These things are definitely unnecessary, not saying they did that to you, though but I have actually known of a few parents who do this to their children. I even see it in public.

    I remember watching a one year old fall on his face and his father picked him up and said "That's life, son you gotta deal with it, stop crying, son, that's what happens" which pissed me off, because he should have not said that, as if the kid could understand him that much, anyway. I would have hugged him and kissed where he fell, letting him know that he is not alone. The scariest thing for a child at times is to feel alone while in pain. It's uncertain and terrifying.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

  4. #24
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    ENTJs can love you in one way, but an ISFP will love you in another. I don't think it's about him being "fair weather" but about him being ENTJ.

    It's good to step back and assess the strengths and weaknesses of your individual parent, grandparent, or guardian, and see that they mean well but have a different definition of what's good for you.
    Well, my real dad is also fair weather. It's not about the type, it's about the person. I just mentioned Entj to specify more.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

  5. #25
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    It kind of comes down to whether you can learn truly through theory or if you need experience to understand.

    Also whether you think a child can learn themselves, or need to be shown. So it's the first statement from the view of the child.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meek View Post
    Well, my real dad is also fair weather. It's not about the type, it's about the person. I just mentioned Entj to specify more.
    You may need to a cuddly Fe type to re-parent you, someone who has endless energy for your problems.

    I'm saying this because yes ENTJs can get annoyed with what they see as constant complaints or lack of self-direction though they might be pleased to give you what you need (food, shelter, advice in a real bind).

    Te tends to "love" by helping you map out strategies or giving you solutions, or simply reminding you of facts when you're upset to get you to calm down.

    Some types are more likely to see this kind of thing as "neediness" than others.

    Find a nice NFJ or SFJ.

  7. #27
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think it is love. I am eternally grateful for the backbone my ISTJ grandfather gave me, and even for some of the toughness his ESTJ wife gave me, though I'm glad for the kindness and sensiitivity shown to me by my ISFJ grandmother who died when I was about six, and for the more easy going nature of my ESFP mother.

    Because of my backbone and toughness I can get through situations other people can't, adjust, defend myself, and I have less fear about chasing my dreams. I think that ability to not be fearful was instilled into my by ESTJ, who was the kind of parent who shoved you right back on the bike when you fell off.

    They made some mistakes, nobody is perfect, but I entirely credit the strength I have to STJs who did a lot of tough love stuff.

    I can't say enough good things about teaching children to have a backbone and initiative. It's my own biased world view, though. I've always kind of had a distaste for extremely "sheltered" people.
    I was not raised with "tough love" and I've always had a lot of backbone & been quite self-sufficient. I consider myself pretty emotionally resilient also.

    The only way I was timid was socially, and my ISFJ mom did not push me because her ESFJ mom pushed her and it set her back years. I was allowed to go at my own pace & came out better for it.

    It reminds me of my INFJ aunt's recent comments on potty training, how she waited til her son was ready & wanted to do it, and she had him fully trained in a weekend. My other ENFP aunt had started her sons earlier with a more pushy, disciplined approach, & it took her 2 years full of setbacks before they were fully trained. All ended up trained at the same age, but my INFJ aunt had a lot less struggle with her more sensitive approach.

    Your reasoning to me seems to follow the excuse "tough love" advocates use, the idea that backbone & whatnot can't be instilled with a more sensitive love that isn't pushy. That's not necessarily true. It may depend on the child. In my case, the sensitivity from my parents instilled a confidence & assuredness in me I didn't get anywhere else. I was not a gentle, pliable child either; a tough love approach would've driven me to destructive rebellion, not created the productive kind of backbone.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #28
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    It kind of comes down to whether you can learn truly through theory or if you need experience to understand.
    That's a good point too....being a theory learner, I suppose I'm inclined to balk at the idea of not understanding the harshness or unfair requirements of the world without having parents thrusting it on you.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #29
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    That's a good point too....being a theory learner, I suppose I'm inclined to balk at the idea of not understanding the harshness or unfair requirements of the world without having parents thrusting it on you.
    This is how I learnt a great deal of my ways. I never really had to experience what it was like to fall. I saw what happened when others did and avoided doing that, however I will say that experience is almost inevitable if you walk outside and so you have to realize, or teach the child if that's how they learn as well that they will not know how badly something WILL hurt until they've experienced it and if you can reason that to them, then I don't think experience is very necessary.

  10. #30
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    I wouldn't label what you described as "tough love". It's exactly what you said- neglect and abuse. To me, tough love is sitting down with someone, even a child, and addressing them like an adult. You don't need to cater to their every tender little whim, walking on eggshells and so on, but it doesn't mean to tell them to shut up or anything of that nature.
    Tough love can be as easy as trying to rationalize a situation out with your child, or teen, or friend, etc. Yes, it may be stern and forthright. Yes, it may not want to huggle all of the squishy guts out of you to make you feel better, but it damned well can be out of love if you are taking the time to really assess with the person at hand. To really get to the core of the issue, point them in the right direction mentally and emotionally, and create a more beneficial solution. Is it like this always? Hell no. The point here is to find balance, and to figure out which situations call for a proper version of tough love, and which situations just require someone being there to console. Both should still be involved, and should still attempt to accomplish something positive without the negativity that abuse/neglect would provide.
    Also, do not forget that people are human, and parents are human. As humans, we are not perfect specimens. We can strive to be, but expect mistakes and fumbles along the way. Expect that parents themselves may both need proper tough love and proper easy love that they may not be getting themselves.

    Btw, I think the abortion example is godawful, and an entirely different topic. Typically, teenage mothers bring children into situations that are not ideal. Typically, the parents of teen mothers are not only emotional support, but become financial support amongst many other things. I can see the apprehension. It just sounds ridiculously flawed. The parents of the teen have to take responsibility for the teen's responsibility of the teen's potential spawn? Is it right to expect the parents to overextend themselves if the child is kept, because that is supposedly "love". Would they be exhibiting "tough love" if they said they weren't going to pave the yellow brick road for their kid, since it was their kid's choice?
    You've also made it sound like abortion isn't a correct option by any means, which makes my skin crawl. I think trying to convince your teen to have a baby when they don't want to is just as wrong as trying to convince them to not have one. Your sentiment seemed to negate that abortion is one of those choices that teens can make, and isn't just the option that their parents choose for them.
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