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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    I'm not saying you advocate child abuse. I'm just saying that intent in action can't always be seen by the person receiving the discipline and unless you can convey that intent to them it may not always work out the way you had planned.

    In the situation you just used though it's a service to everyone not out of love, but out of the best for society. I think that's a noticeable difference, too. Unless you're doing it to protect your child and teaching them how to survive in society. I could see that.
    To me that is love. If your child is a little monster it's going to hurt that child in the long run (behavioral problems in school, possibly difficulty in getting a job, adjustment issues with other people in general). Also it's love to protect other people. Yes, that is love. I don't see love as some selfish thing that only concerns you and your children, that love extends to your neighborhood or local community with most normal people, and in some more "humanitarian" people to the greater society in general. Letting your child be a monster can ruin the lives of yourself and your family members too. It's just stupid.

    HOWEVER, child abuse doesn't keep children from being "spoiled" and could potentially give the child more behavioral problems than they had to begin with, so NO, I don't advocate abusing children.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I see both sides. My question is this... if you love your child who is very sensitive and emotional, but you know that while you might accept this unconditionally the real-world is not so kind, it is bad to employ "tough love" to try to strengthen your child? Is it not this love for your child that motivates you to teach your child how to stand on their own too feet?

    Every time your 5 yr old falls down you pick him up and hug him. You let him cry and allow to feel as he does. You do this for 5 years, then one day he goes to pre-school and falls down and is laughed at by all the other children who see him cry. No one is there to love away his pain. How does he deal with it? He has not learned how to brush it off.

    I think children can be sheltered or spoiled too much, and this does them no favors in the long run when they find the real world not so nice.

    In reconsideration.. I do not agree with OP. Sorry. I do not think you can set a standard for how others express their love. You can only decide if your willing to receive it the way it is expressed. A parent can love their child more than anything but think the best way to show it is through tough love, material gifts, services, teaching autonomy, teaching strength, etc. There are probably a million ways to show ones love.. it is up to the receiver to understand the intention behind the act.
    Teaching autonomy and strength are acts of love, I entirely agree.

    Aside from the obvious child abuse factor, I think it could just be about "love languages."

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    To me that is love. If your child is a little monster it's going to hurt that child in the long run (behavioral problems in school, possibly difficulty in getting a job, adjustment issues with other people in general). Also it's love to protect other people. Yes, that is love. I don't see love as some selfish thing that only concerns you and your children, that love extends to your neighborhood or local community with most normal people, and in some more "humanitarian" people to the greater society in general. Letting your child be a monster can ruin the lives of yourself and your family members too. It's just stupid.

    HOWEVER, child abuse doesn't keep children from being "spoiled" and could potentially give the child more behavioral problems than they had to begin with, so NO, I don't advocate abusing children.
    This brings to mind something else I find interesting about love. Most think it's about intensity, but I am sure that most would not value the lives of others MORE than they would their immediate relatives (disregarding conflicts, we're speaking hypotheticals). It may be a convenience for society if these munchkins fall in line, but that isn't so much love for them as it is stability for society and a byproduct just happens to be they learn how to survive. Different motives same products.

    I don't disagree with that, stability is necessary to an extent, but that isn't love, unless it is protection.

    For the record I agree with all of your statements Marm.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I see both sides. My question is this... if you love your child who is very sensitive and emotional, but you know that while you might accept this unconditionally the real-world is not so kind, it is bad to employ "tough love" to try to strengthen your child? Is it not this love for your child that motivates you to teach your child how to stand on their own too feet?

    Every time your 5 yr old falls down you pick him up and hug him. You let him cry and allow to feel as he does. You do this for 5 years, then one day he goes to pre-school and falls down and is laughed at by all the other children who see him cry. No one is there to love away his pain. How does he deal with it? He has not learned how to brush it off.

    I think children can be sheltered or spoiled too much, and this does them no favors in the long run when they find the real world not so nice.

    In reconsideration.. I do not agree with OP. Sorry. I do not think you can set a standard for how others express their love. You can only decide if your willing to receive it the way it is expressed. A parent can love their child more than anything but think the best way to show it is through tough love, material gifts, services, teaching autonomy, teaching strength, etc. There are probably a million ways to show ones love.. it is up to the receiver to understand the intention behind the act.
    Then the child will learn on their own that other people are cruel and not loving. By showing him "tough love" you are preparing him for the worst outcome, which is what you stated but why would you do this to your own child, when you're supposed to show him the utmost of love and kindness? How would you treat the child is he fell, like the kids would? Laugh at him? Call him names? Would you ignore him completely? You show your child that he is loved. When the children make fun of him, he remembers that someone loves him so the fall doesn't hurt as bad mentally. Without that love, he will feel more pain from knowing that his mother or father ignored him and gave him a justification of invalidation known as "tough love"

    Now, with the drug addicts- Disciplining a person is not love. You do so to control them, to control them into doing what you want them to do, which may be a good outcome in the end but at the time, the person will feel pushed away from you instead of loved. If you absolutely have to do so, remember to love them as much as possible, hug them, call them to remind them you care. This may also confuse them a lot, knowing that someone who shows them love treats them that way.

    This is like giving someone money to get braces, as a gift for christmas and telling them they have crooked teeth.
    Maybe they want crooked teeth? Perhaps they want to be loved, to be accepted and not controlled into doing what someone else wants?

    I know there are horrible drug addicts out there but sometimes I think their parents didn't step in enough with genuine love, they ended up getting too scared and screaming at them for fucking up. The child knows they've screwed up, they don't need convincing of that. I've seen alcoholics recover because they received love. Even meth heads and crack addicts. A good friend of mine has an alcoholic boyfriend who goes in and out of jail and he recently started working at a place that takes care of people with disabilities. I've never seen him this happy before. Love comes in many forms but it doesn't come in a tough package.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    To explain why I thought of writing this:
    My boyfriend's dad wanted to take on the role of being my second dad.
    He told me I can come to him any time I need to, when I am crying, stressed about anything that he is always here for me.
    The words "love dad" are always on my facebook wall by him.

    Well, recently he has started to complain that I stress him out too much with my problems and I wrote something on facebook like this:

    "I want to know something. What is the point of being a parent if you limit your emotional support for a child who just needs love? I now know there is such a thing as a fair weather parent."

    And he responded with; "Ever heard of tough love???" I guess I feel like I've been treated unfairly by him and he's made excuses to treat me like shit.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
    Albert Einstein

  6. #16
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    The grass is always greener.....

    I have seen both tough love and easy love fail in different situations. I don't really think there is one way that is guaranteed successful for every person. These things are individual.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Meek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I have seen both tough love and easy love fail in different situations. I don't really think there is one way that is guaranteed successful for every person. These things are individual.
    Yes! I wanted to say that but kept forgetting to mention it. I think that what works for one person, will not for the other.
    This is why I am having trouble with the bf's dad. He is an Entj and keeps shoving his ideas onto me.
    I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious.-
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  8. #18
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    That's really sad that you were treated that way, meek. My own parents made many mistakes, but they never mistreated me under the guise of tough love. Therefore, I don't have the same negative connotations that you have with the term tough love.

    Love is one of those concepts that is so wide and so deep it's really a mistake to compare it side by side with concepts like discipline. I believe love can permeate an entire relationship so I think the key is to understand how discipline fits and nests within the concept of love rather than seeing them as separate from one another.

    Tough love seems to me to occur when a parents treats a child in a way that goes against their immediate desire in an attempt to fulfill their long term desires for the child. It seems to me the defining characteristic is that the action is tough on the parent. Hauling off and slapping a kid every time they cry is exactly the opposite of this, because the parent would seem to be reacting to their own selfish desire to immediately resolve the problem as opposed to considering the child's long term welfare.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    This brings to mind something else I find interesting about love. Most think it's about intensity, but I am sure that most would not value the lives of others MORE than they would their immediate relatives (disregarding conflicts, we're speaking hypotheticals). It may be a convenience for society if these munchkins fall in line, but that isn't so much love for them as it is stability for society and a byproduct just happens to be they learn how to survive. Different motives same products.

    I don't disagree with that, stability is necessary to an extent, but that isn't love, unless it is protection.

    For the record I agree with all of your statements Marm.
    I think it is love. I am eternally grateful for the backbone my ISTJ grandfather gave me, and even for some of the toughness his ESTJ wife gave me, though I'm glad for the kindness and sensiitivity shown to me by my ISFJ grandmother who died when I was about six, and for the more easy going nature of my ESFP mother.

    Because of my backbone and toughness I can get through situations other people can't, adjust, defend myself, and I have less fear about chasing my dreams. I think that ability to not be fearful was instilled into my by ESTJ, who was the kind of parent who shoved you right back on the bike when you fell off.

    They made some mistakes, nobody is perfect, but I entirely credit the strength I have to STJs who did a lot of tough love stuff. They also balanced it with always providing in spades for my physical and intellectual needs (I had everything and then some, fancy toys I didn't need, nice clothes, and extra classes outside of school like dance and piano lessons) even if they weren't as emotionally soft and told me to toughen up sometimes when they should have been more understanding.

    But, like I said, I have my mom, and aunts, who were more soft or understanding.

    I can't say enough good things about teaching children to have a backbone and initiative. It's my own biased world view, though. I've always kind of had a distaste for extremely "sheltered" people.

  10. #20
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    Edit - Calling people out is more guidance than it is love in my eyes.
    I agree with this..... the people who counsel drug addicts through rehab & whatnot are not emotionally involved for a reason (not involved the way a family member would be anyway). If they're acting out of love, it's a love for humanity in general, not a personal love. When family/close friends are involved in such affairs, it often is just an expression of concern & love on their part to let the person know they are valued so they feel motivated to make changes (ie. interventions).

    I think there's a big difference between being firm & "tough love", which I see as abrasive, insensitive & coming from a selfish place. It's someone who doesn't want to be bothered or won't accept responsibility for some monster they creates, not a genuine interest in guiding a child or partner or whoever it is that needs some structure & emotional support.


    Quote Originally Posted by Meek View Post
    ]You show your child that he is loved. When the children make fun of him, he remembers that someone loves him so the fall doesn't hurt as bad mentally. Without that love, he will feel more pain from knowing that his mother or father ignored him and gave him a justification of invalidation known as "tough love"
    Agreed. A major role of the parent is to teach love, not to teach that the world is unkind. Everyone learns that fast enough, but they often don't learn is how to show love, compassion, sympathy, concern, etc.

    I wonder if those kids who laugh on the playground are being taught to be insensitive, without compassion, unloving, etc, because their parents think it's "tough love". I saw kids on the playground reach out to others when hurt; so not all are taught the same.

    Disciplining a person is not love.
    I think this depends on the form of discipline. Discipline does not simply mean to punish or impose rules, but to teach & train how to deal with existing structure in the world & that there are consequences for negative actions. This can be done so lovingly of course. It doesn't have to be harsh or insensitive or squash individuality.
    I think love requires discipline when it comes to raising children but I think a parent can be understanding & still correct their child. Often, this makes the child more receptive to discipline anyway.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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