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  1. #21
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    THe other time I get really blunt is with the whole "Elephant in the room" bit. Like I cant sit in a situation and ignore something really obvious going on. Do you guys find yourself doing that as well? For instance, I went to a gathering recently with a bunch of our long term, good friends.. and one of these friends and her husband are both ridiculous drinkers. I mean, all of us drink and get a bit crazy or goofy.. but these guys take it to the next level and become extremely annoying, uncouth, and almost always some type of drama breaks out with themselves or others. We all know they have some problems, but both are extremely unwilling to fess up to it. Anyhow, everyone starts to walk on eggshells, get nervous, because we all know inevitably something bad is going down the drunker they get. But no one ever wants to say anything in an effort to be "polite" or they don't feel its their place. But I jsut don't give a shit. I don't think I'm rude about it.. I pull them aside and let them know they should look at slowing their roll, remind them of previous times its been a problem.. but they just keep doing what they are doing. Sure enough they end up fighting and arguing.. and we all have to pull them apart and calm them down. WHile talking to my friend, she is saying all this crap like they've both been really stressed, blah blah blah.. and I look at her and say "Ya, you've been really really stressed for about 10 yrs now, right? I think that is a copout. I think you both know you have some drinking problems, and you need to get some fucking help. We've talked about this before, and I don't know why you keep denying it. " So she says to me that I am on a moral highhorse, and that I used to be so nice to her. Why have I changed? I don't like her anymore! So I say "I absolutely love you.. but I'll be honest, I can't stand you and Neil when you guys are drunk. And alot of others feel the same way. You need to get some help, or people are going to quit inviting you over."

    What do you think? Am i mean?
    Haha... mean, no. Bit tactless, yes IMHO. Still, the message had to be conveyed to the couple by SOMEONE... and you did it, so props to you. I would have been less confrontational - I think there you almost sounded like you're delivering THE ultimatum (although that's probably not what you intended). Not many - at least from what I've seen - take kindly to those kind of things, regardless of the circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if that friend of yours was offended and is now mad at you.

    Anyhow, WRT the OP: Ideally, I think one should be honest but careful with delivery. I usually try to validate the other person in one way or another whenever I point out negatives... Even if the person I'm confronting is in the wrong, I won't say "you're wrong." It'll be something more like, "Circumstance A and circumstance B seem to have affected your judgment/led you to do C... I can understand that. I think maybe you could do this to remedy the situation... Here's another option... In the end, though, it's always up to you to decide." IME I find that going on about negative consequences rarely work.

    I don't really see the whole thing as sugar-coating though - more like a strategy. It's a strategy to make the other person more willing to listen (and therefore get your message across), and consider what you're saying without feeling hurt or misunderstood.

    -

    Oh, and--I have serious issues with people with the victim mentality too. I only have a few friends who are like that (thank goodness), and whenever they start going on about how oh-so-pitiful they are, I just bail. Drop the conversation as politely as possible.

    I strongly recommend channeling your positive energies to people who're worth it.
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    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  2. #22
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    THe other time I get really blunt is with the whole "Elephant in the room" bit. Like I cant sit in a situation and ignore something really obvious going on. Do you guys find yourself doing that as well? For instance, I went to a gathering recently with a bunch of our long term, good friends.. and one of these friends and her husband are both ridiculous drinkers. I mean, all of us drink and get a bit crazy or goofy.. but these guys take it to the next level and become extremely annoying, uncouth, and almost always some type of drama breaks out with themselves or others. We all know they have some problems, but both are extremely unwilling to fess up to it. Anyhow, everyone starts to walk on eggshells, get nervous, because we all know inevitably something bad is going down the drunker they get. But no one ever wants to say anything in an effort to be "polite" or they don't feel its their place. But I jsut don't give a shit. I don't think I'm rude about it.. I pull them aside and let them know they should look at slowing their roll, remind them of previous times its been a problem.. but they just keep doing what they are doing. Sure enough they end up fighting and arguing.. and we all have to pull them apart and calm them down. WHile talking to my friend, she is saying all this crap like they've both been really stressed, blah blah blah.. and I look at her and say "Ya, you've been really really stressed for about 10 yrs now, right? I think that is a copout. I think you both know you have some drinking problems, and you need to get some fucking help. We've talked about this before, and I don't know why you keep denying it. " So she says to me that I am on a moral highhorse, and that I used to be so nice to her. Why have I changed? I don't like her anymore! So I say "I absolutely love you.. but I'll be honest, I can't stand you and Neil when you guys are drunk. And alot of others feel the same way. You need to get some help, or people are going to quit inviting you over."

    What do you think? Am i mean?
    No, I do stuff like that, and I'm a scaredy cat INFP. You are doing them a kindness in the long run. In fact elephants in the room are what get me going!
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I just think it's shocking sometimes when you're suddenly direct. When I was younger I had no concept of how to balance it because I was raised by ISTJ-retired-military-captain who was frequently silent and left people alone, but when he said something important he fucking meant it and there was no hedging around it or arguing, very authoritarian. His ESTJ wife constantly barked orders and micromanaged the house (and I've frequently pointed out she's not exactly the healthiest specimen of ESTJ alive) so by high school my Te had already begun to develop, and I would say from that point up until about the age of 21 or 22 I would literally just stomp around and bark orders at people when I was frustrated, kind of in a mimic of the STJs who had raised me.

    Now that I'm older it kind of surprises people how firm and insistent I can be when shit goes down because I learned to balance it in a more mature way so that I wasn't just being ridiculous and intrusive. It's really great because I've also learned to be very direct with people more tactfully IRL, and someone just complimented me on this the other day, how I handle things in a very direct manner without raising my voice or snapping necessarily.

    Still, I think shock sets in for people when they're being confronted and you won't accept their bullshit, especially when it's just something crazy. I had a friend who was basically dying of being morbidly obese and type 2 diabetes in her twenties and while I was tactful and caring about it, I really didn't want to hear any of her excuses or see her tears when people offered her SO many alternative ways of eating, including the fact that I would purposely buy her "treats" that were sweetened with Splenda as a gift to help make the transition easier for her. Situations like that are very difficult, but it's crap to just say, "oh, okay, it's cool if you sit here and eat cake if you want." I wasn't sargeant major-ish about it at all, just quietly firm, and I think it still upset her because all she wanted to hear was that it would be alright if she kept eating things that were bad for her.

    I think sometimes people find it easier to take from TJs because it becomes something you consistently expect from them, and with the ENFP it seems more like two split personalities.

    I just wonder if it bothers certain types of people more than others.

    Also, this is probably why INFJs are counselors and ENFPs are inspirers, like someone already said. I don't think I have any business being a counselor.
    I bolded a few things that I particularly relate to and are tangentially related to what I am about to post. :p

    I think you are right that the direct approach is shocking to some people when it has to come from us and it seems like a split personality thing. Also, I'm not as comfortable or probably elegant as a Te dom would be when I have to go there. It gets pretty crude and like I will say what the person is not doing and phrase it all negatively and not in a really constructive manner and I can be so succinct and really personal with it like there is a curt "you are a dumbass" undertone to it, even though I didn't really mean it that way.

    I was in a meeting last week where this IxTJ coworker was really just getting all up in my grill and challenging everything I said, and it came off as though he was questioning my integrity because he was basically implying that as events unfolded in the meeting he realized that me and my team had been lying or misleading or withholding information from him for a year, which was the furthest thing from the truth. This guy is known to be outwardly hostile and I think it actually used to be worse. And we are actually friends outside of work and here he was trying to steamroll me in front of customers and vendors. I was all patient, patient, trying to logically lead him through to see the error of his ways but it wasn't working. He will never back down for fear of looking bad. I tried 3 different times to lead him back through things so he could see it was all consistent and everything was logically fitting together with the plan and nothing was a surprise or anything different than what I had told him for a year. He kept saying "this is the first I heard of it" so finally I just stopped, looked at him, and just frankly said "Well then, you have not been listening." It sounds factual and not that big of a deal but it was for him and I probably knew it before I said it. It set him off so bad that he stormed out of the meeting and had to go cool off. I realized later that there was a lot of personal accusation bundled up in what I said to him, not the least of which being a "you have not done your job for a year now" which is not really what I meant but his whole job basically required that he would know wtf had been going on so it was all bundled up in there together. After he cooled off he called and talked to me about it and asked what it is that he does that puts me in the situation where I have to respond to him like that (this was the 2nd or 3rd time I have had to).

    Of course now I'm catching all kinds of ribbing for it from other people at work because talk of it is spreading around. I think a lot of people have been in my situation with him and they all think it is hilarious that I'm the one that squashed it. They see me as the guy who is so patient and accepting and will take the time to talk anyone through anything.

    I'm not really all that comfortable in those situations, so I also probably come off like I'm extremely pissed off once the claws come out. I think the discomfort can be seen as me being angry, when I'm really not, I'm just tired of the bullshit.

  4. #24
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I'm not going to bullshit them and tell them they are not fat, that the D- on a term paper wasn't fair, that gettind dumped was totally on the other person, so they can continue on making the same mistakes. Yet as much as I see this brutally honest, or direct responce as a sign of caring, it tends to come off as "cruel" or "insensitive" at times, no matter how soft I try to convey it.

    Do any of you other ENFP's struggle to find a balance with this?
    In these types of situations I struggle because I don't really want to hurt their feelings, but I feel like if I address the subject any at all I have to be 100% honest about it. So I end up either being extremely blunt or I give some kind of sideways non answer and hope they don't notice. I once had a woman ask me why I was not interested in dating her. I tried to dodge the question and she insisted that I answer it, so I just listed out for her everything that I didn't like about her. I think I was like 18 or 19 at the time, she might have been slightly older, I didn't actually know her very well but I knew I didn't like her. Oh it did not go over well. She left and seemed like she either wanted to cry or punch me, and I don't think I ever actually saw her again after that (like I said, we didn't really know each other that well).

  5. #25
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    By the way, it's never a good idea to tell a woman that she's fat, IMO. You've got quite the nerve, Huxley.

    I'm curious... Is it difficult for you to tell white lies? If so, why?
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    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    By the way, it's never a good idea to tell a woman that she's fat, IMO. You've got quite the nerve, Huxley.

    I'm curious... Is it difficult for you to tell white lies? If so, why?
    I don't just go around telling people they are fat! I'll give you the scenario where this played out. One of my best buds is a heavy girl and has been that way much of her life. We are really close, we talk weight and nutrition alot. I met up with her last week at park, and as we were talking she told me that she really needs to lose weight, and that people have been asking her when she is due. She is so hurt by this, (she is an esfj).. and went on and on about how she is going to try X diet now, etc. THe problem is, the LOVES food. SHe exorcises more than alot of people I know.. but she probably consumes 5k calories a day! So after the whole sad rant, she looks at me and says.. what do you think? Am I that fat? And I say, "X- you are one of the coolest people I know, you have your shit together more than any of our friends (she runs a dealership) you are absolutely gorgeous in features, hair, style.. but you ARE a very heavy girl, and I can see how some might think you are pregnant because you carry your weight very unevenly. I think that instead of trying yet another crazy diet.. that you need to probably see a nutritionist and get your hormones/thyroid checked." And she says "So I AM that fat." and I say.. "You are pretty Heavy, X.. but the great thing about it is you can change that, right? Can't change ugly, can't change stupid, but you can change fat." SHe seemed a little dissapointed in my responce.. but she knows its true.

    White lies? Yes they do bother me, depends on the context. Why do you ask?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  7. #27
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^ this is very true halla. and very frustrating when someone makes it seem like they are interested in one of those possibilities but then proceeds to act as if they had asked for the other.



    GODDAMMIT WILL YOU QUIT WHINING AND GET YOUR REALLY QUITE REMARKABLY TALENTED ASS OFF MY COUCH PLZKTHX.

    not exactly professional...

    i had this INFJ counseling prof, he was like The Perfect Counselor. seriously. he was like an archetype. i can't imagine anyone getting any more counsely than him. i'm guessing he's INFJ 9w1 so/sx.
    Wait, so we're not counselor material? Meh.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    I wonder how common this is for ENFP's.

    Most of the time I can be a very understanding, nurturing, sensitive person. In the last few years however, I've seen my personality shift a bit. Actually, other people have mentioned it to me and that is what has got me thinking.. how common is this for ENFP's?

    What it really boils down to, is that I sometimes get tired of walking on eggshells and comforting people who refuse to understand just how many of there problems are self-created. I'm not an exception to this at all.. but for along time now when I do have probs, after I let the emotions blow over and what-not, it almost always comes back to something I can control, or change. I believe each person is the captain of their destiny, and really hate wasting time jusitfying how I, or anyone else is a hopeless victim of circumstance. This mindset has caused me to become rather impatient with *certain people* .. with little tolerance for emotional wallowing, or what I see as an ignoring of the real problem.

    I often feel compelled to be brutally honest with those closest to me. I see this honesty as being sooo much more valueable than making them feel warm and fuzzy. I see it as sincere, and I do it because I care for these people. I care so much, infact, that I'm not going to bullshit them and tell them they are not fat, that the D- on a term paper wasn't fair, that gettind dumped was totally on the other person, so they can continue on making the same mistakes. Yet as much as I see this brutally honest, or direct responce as a sign of caring, it tends to come off as "cruel" or "insensitive" at times, no matter how soft I try to convey it.

    Do any of you other ENFP's struggle to find a balance with this?
    I am not quite an ENFP but I have noticed this in myself as well the past couple of years. Maybe being a tad more on the ambivert side (not quite an A though), my Te is rising early in the night sky.

    I will listen to a certain point... and then when I feel like my listening skills are being wasted, I start giving them a reality check.

    My example:
    I have a friend who is my dramaqueen friend. She is always creating scenarios in her head where she is the victim and I get to the point where I just can't listen anymore. That's when INFTeP comes out to play. She's my friend who has whined the most about being single for basically ever... but never thinks to address her own issues as being the problem. Finally she meets a guy at a party a few months ago. She thinks he's cute, funny, fun, and that he likes her too. Sounds great, right? Oh no... this silver lining just has to have a storm cloud attached....

    Her: Hey I need to talk to you about something serious with Adam. I want your honest opinion. So tell me the truth.
    Me: I am all ears. Go.
    Her: Ok, so... everything is great with him but this one problem and I need your advice.
    Me: All right, I will do my best!
    Her: Well.... He's..... um.... 5 foot 8.
    Me: *waits for actual problem to appear*
    Her: Well, aren't you going to say something?!
    Me: Oh, I'm sorry I was waiting for you to continue.
    Her: Well, isn't it obvious? I am 5 foot 9!
    Me: Ok, so just checking here, you want my honest opinion right?
    Her: Yeee.....essss.....
    Me: Ok. Here goes. You're an idiot. This is a stupid thing to care about.
    Her: Well, what if people make fun of us?!
    Me: Then you are even more of an idiot for caring what random people think. Besides when you're in bed all the parts still line up the same.
    Her: Well, maybe....

    I know what she wanted and that was for me to "freak out" with her and wring my hands and worry about what others will think and then help guide her to the chair of "well, maybe you just won't ever be able to wear heels again" and both of us can mourn over her great loss. I just can't deal. I was really expecting her to say something like "Well, Adam has a second head sprouting from his shoulder blades." or "Adam never wants to brush his teeth again." Those are far more alarming. (And in the former case, intriguing...)

  9. #29
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    ^----- Ya, I would have cut right through that bullshit aswell... lame *shakes head* super lame.. and good for you!
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  10. #30
    Post-Humorously stalemate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Her: Hey I need to talk to you about something serious with Adam. I want your honest opinion. So tell me the truth.
    Me: I am all ears. Go.
    Her: Ok, so... everything is great with him but this one problem and I need your advice.
    Me: All right, I will do my best!
    Her: Well.... He's..... um.... 5 foot 8.
    Me: *waits for actual problem to appear*
    Her: Well, aren't you going to say something?!
    Me: Oh, I'm sorry I was waiting for you to continue.
    Her: Well, isn't it obvious? I am 5 foot 9!
    Me: Ok, so just checking here, you want my honest opinion right?
    Her: Yeee.....essss.....
    Me: Ok. Here goes. You're an idiot. This is a stupid thing to care about.
    Her: Well, what if people make fun of us?!
    Me: Then you are even more of an idiot for caring what random people think. Besides when you're in bed all the parts still line up the same.
    Her: Well, maybe....
    lol... i had almost this same conversation with a friend of mine a few years ago, except even worse... he was dating a girl and was worried because she wasn't ENOUGH shorter than him. like it was only 2 inches and he wanted at least 4 or something (TWSS).

    I told him he was a moron and if these are the kind of problems he is worrying about with someone that seemed to be great for him in every other way, he was destined to be alone and miserable. He ended up breaking up with her, probably because of the height issue.

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