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  1. #11
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    What it really boils down to, is that I sometimes get tired of walking on eggshells and comforting people who refuse to understand just how many of there problems are self-created.
    The worst thing with this is that they mistake this luxury I give them for the way things should be. When I finally have had enough of it, they think I'm being irrationally upset and angry out of no where and it blindsides them because they're used to the current pattern of me tippy-toeing around. I'm very "live and let live" so although I give out advice, I don't really expect people to follow it and I don't get really mad when they don't.. but I can't feel sorry for someone that doesn't listen to good logic, and then expects me to sympathize with them.

    I'm not an exception to this at all.. but for along time now when I do have probs, after I let the emotions blow over and what-not, it almost always comes back to something I can control, or change. I believe each person is the captain of their destiny, and really hate wasting time jusitfying how I, or anyone else is a hopeless victim of circumstance. This mindset has caused me to become rather impatient with *certain people* .. with little tolerance for emotional wallowing, or what I see as an ignoring of the real problem.
    My sister and I got into an argument today over this very topic. I wasn't being very sensitive to her when I was stating what was up... and she was angry I wasn't being considerate of her feelings.. but I can't feel for her when she stacks the logs into her own hands and finds her legs wobbling. I wallow in my own self-pity for a while, dust my knees off when they buckle, and tell myself to stop being a wuss and handle business.. so I expect others to be the same way. I often forget they don't have my drive.. everyone is different.

    So I try to nudge her into seeing what I see.. that she can fix this and she's not as bad off as she thinks. She knows what she has to do, but she's avoiding it like she's giving up and blaming life on it and I refuse to buy that excuse.. It caused a really big outburst. To me, it was out of love for her.. to her.. I was being rude, and mean and lecturing as if I were the better man.

    I often feel compelled to be brutally honest with those closest to me. I see this honesty as being sooo much more valueable than making them feel warm and fuzzy. I see it as sincere, and I do it because I care for these people. I care so much, infact, that I'm not going to bullshit them and tell them they are not fat, that the D- on a term paper wasn't fair, that gettind dumped was totally on the other person, so they can continue on making the same mistakes. Yet as much as I see this brutally honest, or direct responce as a sign of caring, it tends to come off as "cruel" or "insensitive" at times, no matter how soft I try to convey it.
    For me, I come off as cruel because I usually do stay back, and stay quiet and chill out.. when I do feel the need to say something, it seems out of no where, but to me it's been there the whole time. I am right there with you with brutal honesty.. even if I dont' want to hear it, I appreciate it immensely and process it on my own later. As I told my sister, "Im doing this because I love you. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother telling you anything, and you saw that with so-and-so.. I was mad at her for the same things, but I never confronted her because I don't care what she does. I care what happens to you." She didn't see it that way, but I hope she will later when she calms down.

    Do any of you other ENFP's struggle to find a balance with this?
    I think the thing I struggle with the most about it is that.. I feel people the closest to me should know me by now. To me..
    "Have I ever come at you with anger before? Have I ever judged you, or told you what to do? So now, when I'm being passionate about something, you assume all my actions previous to this are a lie somehow?" I feel like people never even bothered to look at me twice.. like all my deep efforts to show people that I won't judge them, or invalidate them, and that I care mean nothing to them..
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  2. #12
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    I just think it's shocking sometimes when you're suddenly direct. When I was younger I had no concept of how to balance it because I was raised by ISTJ-retired-military-captain who was frequently silent and left people alone, but when he said something important he fucking meant it and there was no hedging around it or arguing, very authoritarian. His ESTJ wife constantly barked orders and micromanaged the house (and I've frequently pointed out she's not exactly the healthiest specimen of ESTJ alive) so by high school my Te had already begun to develop, and I would say from that point up until about the age of 21 or 22 I would literally just stomp around and bark orders at people when I was frustrated, kind of in a mimic of the STJs who had raised me.

    Now that I'm older it kind of surprises people how firm and insistent I can be when shit goes down because I learned to balance it in a more mature way so that I wasn't just being ridiculous and intrusive. It's really great because I've also learned to be very direct with people more tactfully IRL, and someone just complimented me on this the other day, how I handle things in a very direct manner without raising my voice or snapping necessarily.

    Still, I think shock sets in for people when they're being confronted and you won't accept their bullshit, especially when it's just something crazy. I had a friend who was basically dying of being morbidly obese and type 2 diabetes in her twenties and while I was tactful and caring about it, I really didn't want to hear any of her excuses or see her tears when people offered her SO many alternative ways of eating, including the fact that I would purposely buy her "treats" that were sweetened with Splenda as a gift to help make the transition easier for her. Situations like that are very difficult, but it's crap to just say, "oh, okay, it's cool if you sit here and eat cake if you want." I wasn't sargeant major-ish about it at all, just quietly firm, and I think it still upset her because all she wanted to hear was that it would be alright if she kept eating things that were bad for her.

    I think sometimes people find it easier to take from TJs because it becomes something you consistently expect from them, and with the ENFP it seems more like two split personalities.

    I just wonder if it bothers certain types of people more than others.

    Also, this is probably why INFJs are counselors and ENFPs are inspirers, like someone already said. I don't think I have any business being a counselor.

  3. #13
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I think the thing I struggle with the most about it is that.. I feel people the closest to me should know me by now. To me..
    "Have I ever come at you with anger before? Have I ever judged you, or told you what to do? So now, when I'm being passionate about something, you assume all my actions previous to this are a lie somehow?" I feel like people never even bothered to look at me twice.. like all my deep efforts to show people that I won't judge them, or invalidate them, and that I care mean nothing to them..
    oh, yes. i had this same thing happen with an old, very close friend. we were having an argument and i mentioned the possibility of me being able to not do a favor for her i said i'd do and leave her in a lurch. she got so angry and freaked out. but i said to her later, have i ever promised you i would do something for you and then not followed through? have i ever left you hanging when you told me you really needed me, even if i didn't promise you anything? haven't i helped you time and time again at detriment to my own plans? don't i talk about possibilities all the time, regardless of their feasibility or advisability? is there any reason to think that i would ever actually do that to you?

    the only reason i said it was to make it clear to her that i was doing her the favor entirely for her sake. my trip would have been easier (though admittedly, less fulfilling) had i not changed my plans to help her in that way.


    it occurs to me that INTJs have expressed Ni/Se feelings like this (and she is Ni/Se) before. that one action or statement suddenly reframes the past. i don't know why, though. to me it is logical that the statement should be placed in the context of the past, rather than the past being placed in the context of the statement. if you trust that i have your good intentions at heart, why would that suddenly change? the internal rules are always the same. it's just how i express them that changes.

  4. #14
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I could also see where this person is coming from about us bossing others around.. It is easy to mistake my advice for being told what needs to be done.. but the truth is, thats just how I process information. It isn't that I expect them to listen to my advice. but solving problems is what I do. I understand not everyone does that.. and sometimes we all need help seeing another side of the coin. So I feel like I am contributing when I say these things.

    To me.. I am here for my friends if they need to vent. But it is awkward for me to stand there ".. Oh. Okay... Omg. Yeah... So then what? .. .Uh uh... .. Cool.. next."
    I feel like, while I am there, I can help work through the process and thoughts of what is going on.. and maybe offer a potential solution, right or wrong. At least.. maybe if I say something, it could lead to inspiration for something else. I can understand this being frustrating for others though..
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  5. #15
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I could also see where this person is coming from about us bossing others around.. It is easy to mistake my advice for being told what needs to be done.. but the truth is, thats just how I process information. It isn't that I expect them to listen to my advice. but solving problems is what I do. I understand not everyone does that.. and sometimes we all need help seeing another side of the coin. So I feel like I am contributing when I say these things.

    To me.. I am here for my friends if they need to vent. But it is awkward for me to stand there ".. Oh. Okay... Omg. Yeah... So then what? .. .Uh uh... .. Cool.. next."
    I feel like, while I am there, I can help work through the process and thoughts of what is going on.. and maybe offer a potential solution, right or wrong. At least.. maybe if I say something, it could lead to inspiration for something else. I can understand this being frustrating for others though..
    The way I see it, there are two things that get confused for one and other, although I have no fucking idea how:

    (CONCEPT #1): "I just want someone to listen." = OK, great, I will listen, and if that comforts you, I am glad, but do not expect me listening to your hardships to solve your problems, the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

    (CONCEPT #2): "I am having a problem with "X" and I wish to seek your advice as to how I shuld handle it, or how you would consider handling it if you were me, but please don't tell me what to do." = OK perfect, no problem, but don't bite my head off when you ask me for my opinion/advice/theoretical means of solving "Problem X" and I give you a truthful, direct, and unbiased answer.

    Why are these two concepts so elusive to so many people? It really has been a recurring point of contention of many people's lives, mine included.

    If you want me to listen, great, I will do so.
    If you want my advice, wonderful, I'll tell you all I know that I think might be helpful to you condiering whatever it is you tell me is going on in your life.
    BUT - when I give you what you ask of me, please don't turn on me and act like the whole thing is my fault.

    Trying to be a good friend is not always easy I tell you!!!



    -Halla
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  6. #16
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    ^ this is very true halla. and very frustrating when someone makes it seem like they are interested in one of those possibilities but then proceeds to act as if they had asked for the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Also, this is probably why INFJs are counselors and ENFPs are inspirers, like someone already said. I don't think I have any business being a counselor.
    GODDAMMIT WILL YOU QUIT WHINING AND GET YOUR REALLY QUITE REMARKABLY TALENTED ASS OFF MY COUCH PLZKTHX.

    not exactly professional...

    i had this INFJ counseling prof, he was like The Perfect Counselor. seriously. he was like an archetype. i can't imagine anyone getting any more counsely than him. i'm guessing he's INFJ 9w1 so/sx.
    Last edited by skylights; 06-22-2011 at 01:58 PM. Reason: typoo

  7. #17
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    ^ this is very true halla. and very frustrating when someone makes it seem like they are interested in one of those possibilities but then proceeds to act as if they had asked for the other.
    Thank you for summarizing my thoughts, which I could only describe conceptually. <*fucking-ADHD, LOL!*>

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    GODDAMMIT WILL YOU QUIT WHINING AND GET YOUR REALLY QUITE REMARKABLY TALENTED ASS OFF MY COUCH PLZKTHX.

    not exactly professional...

    i had this INFJ counseling prof, he was like The Perfect Counselor. seriously. he was like an archetype. i can't imagine anyone getting any more counsely than him. i'm guessing he's INFJ 9w1 so/sx.
    OMG, I rarely laugh my ass off, and bow in worhtyness at the same time, but this post does it, I love it! :yim_rolling_on_the_
    Fucking emotional terrorists, Arrrrrgh!



    -Halla
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    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
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    Quotes:
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    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  8. #18
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ I'd find that quite comforting.. so I suppose counseling isn't in my career quick-pick list.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  9. #19
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Look at it this way, some people appreciate the shake up some times (even if they don't act like it at the time). Some times you guys cut to the core of the problem, which isn't always easy to see when you are in the midst of it. It hurts like hell, but it's a rope to safety. It's up to the observee to take it.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  10. #20
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    THe other time I get really blunt is with the whole "Elephant in the room" bit. Like I cant sit in a situation and ignore something really obvious going on. Do you guys find yourself doing that as well? For instance, I went to a gathering recently with a bunch of our long term, good friends.. and one of these friends and her husband are both ridiculous drinkers. I mean, all of us drink and get a bit crazy or goofy.. but these guys take it to the next level and become extremely annoying, uncouth, and almost always some type of drama breaks out with themselves or others. We all know they have some problems, but both are extremely unwilling to fess up to it. Anyhow, everyone starts to walk on eggshells, get nervous, because we all know inevitably something bad is going down the drunker they get. But no one ever wants to say anything in an effort to be "polite" or they don't feel its their place. But I jsut don't give a shit. I don't think I'm rude about it.. I pull them aside and let them know they should look at slowing their roll, remind them of previous times its been a problem.. but they just keep doing what they are doing. Sure enough they end up fighting and arguing.. and we all have to pull them apart and calm them down. WHile talking to my friend, she is saying all this crap like they've both been really stressed, blah blah blah.. and I look at her and say "Ya, you've been really really stressed for about 10 yrs now, right? I think that is a copout. I think you both know you have some drinking problems, and you need to get some fucking help. We've talked about this before, and I don't know why you keep denying it. " So she says to me that I am on a moral highhorse, and that I used to be so nice to her. Why have I changed? I don't like her anymore! So I say "I absolutely love you.. but I'll be honest, I can't stand you and Neil when you guys are drunk. And alot of others feel the same way. You need to get some help, or people are going to quit inviting you over."

    What do you think? Am i mean?
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

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