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  1. #61
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Wow that was an amazing post, Z Buck! I identified with so much of what you said there, except that you have had more time to analyze and articulate it properly with the advantage of more hindsight on two longterm relationships. Thanks for that...

  2. #62
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    wow. you just summed up and explained a lot of the communication problems i had in a relationship with an ENFJ.

    i didn't realize the managing of the story so drastically changed things for an NFJ. that's good to know. i tend to do that with information all the time to get it to meet the specific need i am using it for, and as such it just seems like second nature to me, and not a big deal.
    How would you define managing the story? I can't think of specific examples of encountering this, but I think it would really bother me if I felt that the person was shaping the details they included to give me a particular impression that suited their purposes. Seems dishonest/manipulative, but maybe I'm misunderstanding. In what cases do you see managing the story as being a natural part of telling it?

  3. #63
    Senior Member tibby's Avatar
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    I wouldn't want to date myself but I mean I'm not all that bad when I do feel comfortable and secure in a relationship.

    I just doorslammed someone, and it happened after continous similar instances and overall his emotional manipulation. I addressed the issue many times but there's a point where it's no more. I did tell him I am going to do this now and wished him all the best. I was unsure about it for a couple of days but that was just genuinely caring about the person.

    When I do it, I mean it, but it never happens out of the blue.

  4. #64
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    as far as it all building up, i wonder if this is partly, tho entirely, an aspect of f types in general. f types often struggle to compartmentalize, so it's like a holistic change, a qualitative shift, and we can't just section off a particular problem and deal with it completely in isolation, deal with problems one at a time, nearly as well as t types. so it's like it takes a while for it all to build up and issue a whole qualitative change in character, it moves from overall acceptance to no more.

    i mean, in this sense, you see similar aspects in f types in non-relationship situations too (just dealing with stress and general decision-making/indecisiveness). i think the comment about remembering impressions, not details, is a particularly important aspect of the infj quandary with this, and it might have something to do with struggling to truly let go. for me part of that struggle is defenselessness, but relating to zbuck, it's not just defenselessness from the other but more my inability to assert myself and discern what's true for me, set boundaries, etc APART from the other, without dialogue and honest, mutually supportive interaction. so working on this aspect (and this is probably related most to 5w4 and then to 4w5), is necessary for me to feel more stable and able to ACT on my own with my own needs and boundaries regardless of the ideal self i am afraid of being humiliated by when i fail to project/create that. i really think, at this point, focusing on changes over time and keeping your story up to date helps keep a sense of the big picture in mind, which i find really really difficult (helps to talk about your relationship with others and continuously find new sources of input and perspective with which to author your version of the story). but it's the story which helps you make decisions in the moment, because it gives you a sense of the present context that is grounded from the past rather than purely from the moment and what could happen next (purely predictive based on present representations and ways of framing context rather than on the possible stories that could have been the cause of various aspects of the situation).

  5. #65
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    It’s a bad habit of letting emotional distance build for fear of being unreasonable. I’m not even sure I’m comfortable calling it “fear”. It just really seems to be a blind spot for INFJs, for some reason. If I could go back, I’d tell myself to at least say, “Well, it still makes me feel disrespected”- without being so concerned about whether the other person believed I had a right to feel that way or not. The more it builds up, the harder it is to go back and iron things out. I’ve had this emotional distance build up with several people because- in addition to not realizing it was important- I didn’t really know how to express it once it started feeling important (and didn’t know if I was important enough to them to even try). It’s incredibly hard to articulate while it’s happening. I just started slowly emotionally writing them off until I didn’t feel very close to them anymore.
    GEEZ... I do this a lot.

    Most times, I'm not really sure why a particular action is bothering me. It just doesn't feel right. And I also am just not the type of person to point out every little thing that may annoy me, so I let a lot of things go. A lot of times it's not worth it in my initial assessment, but over time I find that I should be saying something. Now I have a lot of crap sitting in my brain and the more I try to process it, the more closed off I become.

    What I do like (in a sadistic way I admit) is when I immediately snap at someone for something that may have been done to hurt me. I haven't had time to brew in thought about it, I don't take time to reflect on what I could have done to make the person do/say whatever it was, I'm not taking time to assess the fairness of the situation, I just spew. Sad to say, but I am like this more with people I don't know well than people that are close to me.

  6. #66
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Little criticisms build up, only they don’t seem like little criticisms at the time- it’ll seem like I’m merely taking note of ‘differences in opinion’. INJs tend to see things as relative right off the bat- so before I even register it as a criticism, I simply register it’s a difference I should make note of. If the person I voice them to perceives it in any way petty or selfish- or if I even just anticipate it will be received that way- then I’ll probably accept that as a valid opinion if I respect the person. And the problem with this is it doesn’t go away. Things like that build up. Instead of demanding it not be seen as petty (which is repugnant to a lot of us, demanding our own opinion be considered valid by the other person in spite of their own opinion), we’ll just secretly keep it to ourselves and write it off as a difference of perspective. But these things add up- it’s more important than we realize in the moment to iron the difference out with the other person- it creates an emotional distance that builds up. If we don’t give the person a chance to iron the differences out before too much of a distance has built up, then the differences begin to feel irreconcilable. I’m not saying this is true for all of us, but I’ve definitely seen it in others as well as myself.
    Your post really resonates with me.

    I'm just in the beginning stages of having inklings that I may do this, and your post just yanked me into the later stage of yes, I sooo do this! and pondering what to do about it. Thanks for your insight

  7. #67
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i didn't realize the managing of the story so drastically changed things for an NFJ. that's good to know. i tend to do that with information all the time to get it to meet the specific need i am using it for, and as such it just seems like second nature to me, and not a big deal.
    Oh believe me, that's one thing which I admire about ENFPs.

    Not only they seem to be quite patient with the judging emotions (I swear I saw in many occasions where ENFPs are ready to explode but manage to keep their emotions at stake, I think INFx are good at catching that), whenever they play the role as a mediator, I often notice their canny-persuasive ability of changing the context (a little) but able to show a new perspective of any conflict in order to change one's view in a positive way, for the sake of maintaining harmony.

    It's all about self-control and avoid being impulsive, which most of them have mastered very well.

  8. #68
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Here’s the thing about having high expectations for those I get close to: I only get close to people whom I already see having high standards as well. It’s not like I get close to someone, then start imposing my high expectations. I find the idea of imposing my expectations on anyone- who doesn’t already expect such things from themselves and others- somewhat repulsive. So yes, I hold people I trust to a higher standard than most of the people who cross my path- but not a higher standard than the person upholds in the first place.
    This is soooooo true! I've always heard many complains when people told me that I've set too high expectation on them. The real problem is these people are also perfectionists as well since like you, I do not attempt an auto-pilot setting on raising the bar higher just for everyone whom I met. This is why when I hear people complaining about the "way" I talk may seem too overwhelming or critical, they usually don't realize that they're also doing exactly the same thing to me, which is what I hate about.

    Though I also noticed that only those who are truly close to us can hurt us through their criticism, no matter if it's constructive or not. However, lately, I tried to have a different approach and it seems that it helps me better to accept criticism from close ones. You know how most NFs are good at our own intuitions to detect things which we have said or done may hurt/upset people? Whenever I picked up those cues from others, I tried to ask them for feedback. In stead of asking them directly "Did I do anything wrong?" I would rephrase it to "would you mind telingl me if there are certain areas where I can improve?"

    I found most people feel more comfortable voicing their opinions out (where we often viewed it as criticisms). Since I asked for it, then no matter how dirty it sounds, I genuinely take it as constructive advice. And this really helps me to be less sensitive and avoid painting a bad picture against someone.

    Well, this works for me anyways.

  9. #69
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Best thing when starting a relationship is having zero expectations and then being positively surprised. This doesnt mean one shouldnt have principles, but they should be of such a general nature like "dont lie", "dont cheat", "dont eat my pancakes" that they cant become a huge problem that needs to be explained.

    Laying out expectations in a relationship from second 1 on is highly counterproductive and will in every case go wrong. Relationships want compromise and lowering one standards slowly from the beginning to the end does make one unhappy, but setting new standards together, which are in accordance to ones expectations is the key
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #70
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    I'm not sure what I think of the whole 'expectations' thing as it relates to myself, but I will say I have an INFJ friend (who comes across very very J) who over the years with those she's close to have had those people tell her they feel like she's 'silently judging' them all of time. She has even lost a couple of friends because of this. I know it hurts her, because I know she cares deeply and she's probably one of the most giving people I know when it comes to her time and charity, but she can be exceedingly critical and frankly, demanding in her relationships, and I think it's only been in the last year or two (she's 34) where she's finally been beaten around a bit by life, and has realized this about herself and has been humbled a bit.

    I think it's good to have 'expectations' in the sense of solid core things that you know you need/want in a relationship, and therefore work towards developing friendships and relationships which meet those core needs. So for me, I think it's that I have these core ideas as a starting point, if you will - things/people I know I want in my life, and things/people I know aren't the sort of thing I want in my life. But I am very very against trying to change people, as to me it's sort of... not fair... I want them to be THEM, and if I don't like THEM and would feel an itch to try to change them, then to me that's telling and I then need to evaluate why I'm with them. I also don't really understand the 'expectation' thing when it comes to Expecting certain things out of people, because often-times, at least for myself, when I really dig deep I realize it tends to be me projecting myself.. me taking what *I* do, or how operate, and thinking the other person should be that way, or being hurt/confused if they do something that if it came from me, would mean something totally different. So I have to be very careful with that, too... making sure I'm not projecting my own self/ way of being onto the other person. Because.. that's not really fair. It's not to say I haven't done it and won't do it again, but it's something I always need to remind myself of. And it's not to say there aren't things other people do that aren't just plain wrong/rude/whatever, or that relationships don't take an element of compromise. (when I think of compromise, though, I tend to think of it in terms of letting go of ones' own ego a bit. Of course holding solid on those things about yourself that *really do* matter and are core, but easing up on those things that in the end are kinda gray and you don't really care one way or another about - in a deep way. So there are heaps of flexy things, and some things that are non-flexy and are too tied into who I am.)
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