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  1. #1
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    Default An INFP's Fi Values Brought to Light

    Within this thread I shall present a scattered musing of various truths that I hold to be self evident and trust in. They may not be perfect, or consietent, considering that my feelings could change concerning certain matters. But I see values and morals as an endless learning process, not as some text book puzzle.

    My attempt of this act, is simply to reveal my insights to others who may wish to now more about me, or learn of a new series of ethics. You may comment on my assertions however you like, whether it be praise, critique, questions, etc.

  2. #2
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    -It is my primary aim, within the confines of this paper, to fully list the ideals that I hold to be true concerning what is good and what is evil. From a young age, I have always been concerned about fairness; I felt very strongly, and naturally, about the actions of others and injustices that occurred, even during the start of pre kindergarten. Such an attitude has hardly changed during my years into early adulthood. Thus ethical principles, are very important to me, as they are essentially a natural part of life.

    -An act of altruism, I pondered the nature of such when I was out for a walk. Should we be altruistic for the good intention behind it? Should we be altruistic for the good consequences it brings? But if we were to be altruistic for those reasons alone, would we not simply be acting altruistic for ulterior motives? Perhaps then, in order for altruism to have value, it should be done for its own sake, not for the justification of anything else. For if altruism is done as a means for something else, then it losses all moral authenticity and becomes worthless. And when others ask 'Oh what logical reasoning is there in altruism then?', I shall reply 'None, I need no logical justification for altruism, I simply am altruistic for it' own sake. Logic be damned.'.

    -People can give objective reasons for moral this and moral that, but from what I learned in my life, is that to truly know something well, you need to experience it in the real world. Good actions, evil actions, the degrees of them, the intentions and consequences, all these have played out in different ways through the first hand experiences of my life. Therefore, clarity of morality, well of mine anyway, is deeply rooted in my own experiences with actions and people.

    -Because life is so complicated, and matters so delicate, it is imperative to assess moral problems based on the particular circumstances of specific situations that they occur in; immediate context should be considered before making a morally based decision.

    -Typically, the nature of a moral action should be based upon two factors; intention and consequence. Intention is the feeling, reasoning, and motivation behind the action, while consequence is what becomes of it. Neither is exclusive, rather, sometimes both need to be evil in order for an action to be really unjust. Consider this theoretical proposition: a person driving accidentally hits and kills a pedestrian. The consequence of this event is the loss of a human life, but since the driver had no intent to kill, then any moral retaliation would probably be wrong. Although whether negligence plays a part as well as internal guilt over the death, but such circumstances are too be taken into account anyway.

    -Mistakes are expected to be made throughout life, in all areas of life. Therefore one should expect to make mistakes in the process of learning morals as well.

    -If an act has little, or nothing, in the way of harmful consequence, then such an act is probably not immoral or wrong, depending on additional circumstances. Thus, all acts of this sort should probably be treated as acceptable and allowed by members of society.

    -I highly doubt that the whole of morality can be quantified into a set of absolute laws that will one day be fully known to everyone. Morality in my experience is far too complex and profound to be perfectly mapped out, rather the process of learning more about it is like that of a journey, we learn a little more each step of the way.

    -Too often it seems that people rely on a rule, norm, law, or some external command not for guidance, but for thought control; they fear disorder or making mistakes thus they close their eyes and listen to what an external authority demands them to do. In this act, blunt and nonsensical errors are brought about, possibly wreaking havoc on those who do not deserve it. Therefore, people should strive to be more proactive in how they deal with specific matters, relying more on independent thought and not blind adherence.

  3. #3
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    -Too often it seems that people rely on a rule, norm, law, or some external command not for guidance, but for thought control; they fear disorder or making mistakes thus they close their eyes and listen to what an external authority demands them to do. In this act, blunt and nonsensical errors are brought about, possibly wreaking havoc on those who do not deserve it. Therefore, people should strive to be more proactive in how they deal with specific matters, relying more on independent thought and not blind adherence.
    I think that making decisions can be one of the most harrowing things that a person does. It is very tempting to either pass that responsibility over to a higher authority or follow the herd mentality by doing what others do. That way, if anything goes wrong there will be someone else to blame and no personal responsibility needs to be applied.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #4

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    Subscribed, and oh btw, I think you (and this venture of yours) is pretty awesome! as an INTP function relative, it's really nice to see Fi logically explained and discussed in such a poignent fashion. so Yay you! I look forward to seeing how this develops.

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    Thank you for the responses you two

    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    I think that making decisions can be one of the most harrowing things that a person does. It is very tempting to either pass that responsibility over to a higher authority or follow the herd mentality by doing what others do. That way, if anything goes wrong there will be someone else to blame and no personal responsibility needs to be applied.
    Indeed, personal responsibility is thus dissipitated and any/all justice towards any crude offenders cannot be taken (granted that the severity of such a mistake warrents justice). It actually reminds me of social orders like Nazi Germany, where the masses all go against independent thought. Although I wonder if this herd mentality can ever truly be thwarted or stopped.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    Subscribed, and oh btw, I think you (and this venture of yours) is pretty awesome! as an INTP function relative, it's really nice to see Fi logically explained and discussed in such a poignent fashion. so Yay you! I look forward to seeing how this develops.
    Thank you I'm glad you appreciate seeing my Fi logic; all too often it seems as though Fi is never really explored or revealed like Ti is (seeing as how INTP's use it in thier arguments so much, it becomes clear as to what it looks like), but now people will see it's true unrefined nature.

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    Upon a casual walk I pondered my previous assertion concerned the moral authenticity of an action; that something like altruism must be done in and of itself to be moral; although ideal such a general rule cannot be practiced absolutely. For example, suppose that if one were to commit an act of altruism under my general rule, that the consequence of the situation that it was used in resulted in a catastrophic effect; it wouldn't make sense as to why the action of altruism would be good all the time if sometimes it lead to mass suffering or other severe negative consequences. I thought that perhaps then, other systems of great moral thought (intention based ethics, result based ethics, and virtue based ethics) varied in level of strength thus they could be applies in situation based on a scale; when one encounters a problem they should reference in a set order, the varying levels of great morality in order to make the best decisions. But upon this realization, I also came onto the conclusion, that because specific circumstances can be so unique, that the great morality chosen to derive reason from should be dependent on the situation at hand.
    In addition, during the process of considering the worth of a virtue based ethic separate from the other great moral systems, I thought that maybe only a utility based ethic would be the way to go rather than only a virtue based one. However taking into account that utility can draw negative side effects I started to doubt this; for example it's possible, under the premise of a utilitarian based ethic, for suffering of some to be allowed if it generates happiness for a larger many. Yet such a practice is not fair to those who are oppressed or hurt, and it can hardly be considered a good moral; therefore, maybe a utilitarian based ethic is only good when the suffering is minimized first, then the happiness is increased afterwards. Now of course I came back to my conclusion of three systems of ethics being used in turn with each other based on the situation at hand, but now I know that if the utility one is referenced and used for a situation then it must be followed under the previous principle, unless special circumstances demand it not be.

  7. #7
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    More musings of a mind manifest:

    -An initial thought came to me: if I were to accept the requirements of becoming a greater being, then I would need to change my current state of being to reach that level. But there is a moment of hesitation at such a thought; that in doing so I will lose who I am, that I will be subverting my individuality for some ideal. However, what, I ask myself ,was so worthy about my current state of being that I enjoyed it so much in the first place? Well it wasn't the state of being for its own sake, no. But rather it was out of an innate sense of inner security; that by maintaining the same state of being that I have now I can feel safe, knowing that things won't change; like that of my current state of being an iron cage which protects me. But no, not for this free spirit, I must advance to something greater, to grow and change anew; thus it is essential to break old cages, in order to move to new heights of my being.

    -The key to bettering the world is not just enhancing the well being of the people within it, but to educate them as well; to bring forth within them the knowledge that will better equip them to live.

    -Sheeple - mindlessly obeying external authorities of all sorts, seeking pleasure above all else, viciously attacking any perceived scapegoat of their problems.

    -What we can know for certain, that is, facts of truth, in the most objective sense belong solely to the realm of objectivity. Beyond these physical truths, nothing can truly be known, as everything else is but a matter of interpretation dependent upon unique individuals.

    -Sometimes I can't be sure if this world around me is physical real, or if I'm dreaming. But regardless, this is the only world I have come to know, thus therein lies its importance to me.

    -If the supposed order of cognitive functions are to be true, then it can be held that a mature individual who has developed his skill set of these functions to a great and equal degree, will use them based on preference, and not of necessity. In doing so, he will be capable of becoming any existential being that he desires.

    -There is nothing more revolting than the hypocrisy of the simpleminded; those who call themselves civilized and lawful, yet engage in acts of prejudice and violence like animals, when they see fit.

    -Honestly, if there is but one major problem with that general whole of humanity, it's that nearly no one questions that which is already known, nor objects to that which is already rule.

    -There is nothing more tacky and pretentious, than a loser who quotes the words of other men, simply to enlighten his own views. Rather than shamelessly borrow the words of others, why not say your own?

    -The conservatives of my current day and age would be fit in imposing an authoritarian hellhole against any and all deviants; hey idiots, why not solve the problem at its roots instead of perpetuating pain and suffering?

    - Science can but answer all the physical truths of the world, but in can never answer the personal truths that we desire to know.

    - What is death but the cessation of one's conscious existence? The existential end to the chapter of one's life? There exists beauty to this death, for it is tragedy at times; not a tragedy that should make one smile, but rather make one frown.

    -Why why?

    -Why do we enjoy the fantasies of entertainment? Because it is but our narcotic to the dreadfulness of reality.

    -Mourn for the death of the wicked; is there any reason to do so at all? Or better yet, whom is truly wicked?

    -To passively accept knowledge without grinding it through the machine of skepticism and analysis; folly. To mentally test knowledge against the principle of reason and logic; genius.

    -Retribution should only be as means of deterrence; otherwise what is it but state instated revenge?

    -"If you forgot something so easily, it probably wasn't an important though at all."; whom is the idiot who originated this statement?

    -"Thou should" is the basis for many moral and ethical judgments; but where is this "should"? Where does it exist; objectively? Of course not, it would be foolish to consider its existence objective when so many peoples of history have sought and discovered various "should". Rather what they haven't realized, is that when they say "Thou should" they really mean to say 'I want"; the inner moral sentiments of one are hidden in the depths of the subconscious; when one exerts this moral feeling, they unknowingly project into the realm of the objective world, deluding themselves into a false origination of morality.

    -Can death be not merciful(?); it brings forth the cessation of one's suffering and pain.

  8. #8
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    Default Further Additions

    -I will my wings so that I may fly; and if by some chance I fall and crash to the ground, then so be it.

    -Is a little suffering and pain at the least not necessary for life itself? What would the side of happiness and joy be without the darker sorrow and sadness that hides behind it?

    -To laugh on the occasional suffering of another can be acceptable in my eyes if the recipient of such laughter can actively join in with it. But to one who would otherwise experience great shame and embarrassment, to laugh and mock such an individual is to insult him for the folly that we are all capable of making.

    -If value is not to be sought in the sense that it is independent of us, then it is something that must be sought from within us.

    -To fiction I shall turn for brief moments, to sedate myself under the temporary narcotic of illusion, and of untold freedom.

    -Science, as great of a tool it is, cannot be the sole provider of knowing in and for the world.

    -In my experience in life, I have come to know that situations are often far too complex, far too delicate, to apply generalized rules to, if one hopes to achieve harmony. Rather, one must (I must) analyze the context of the situation, and through their own sense of moral intelligence and understanding, come to an ethical decision of their own making. At times we can reference certain standards for guidance, but ultimately it is our own judgment that is to come to a tentative decision.

    -When confronted with a situation that produces a moral problem, a fool will reference the pre-determined method that instructs them on how to solve the problem. And so sure are they on the conclusion and certainty of this method, this rule, this law, that they will be blind to error and unsympathetic to the malice that they are responsible for producing via their dogmatism. And because they do not learn from this rule, they will continue to make the same mistake eternally.

    -Beyond the ultimately unknowable distinction of whether this world is the base real world or not, there exists an apparent phenomenon to its structure, as so far as I have experienced it. Beyond what is a physical reality is but a collection of various forces at work, one that is neither exclusively deterministic nor random. The world is not orderly nor chaotic; such views are but perceptions of various individuals and their will of the world; what appears like order to one man is but chaos to another and vice versa. It is the same false distinction between good and evil; but a subjective illusion of the way we perceive things.

    -What largely determines the initial phase of a characters life wholly depends on the events that transpire within their own immediate lifetime, or the effects that have occurred earlier that ultimately effect that present lifetime. Various forces, often social, shape the individual into what they are, but they are in a certain sense their own individual; some are effected differently as well, resulting in individuals who are more free from the constraint of those initial social forces. Regardless of individual, each being causes their own effects towards various other parts of reality, although those with more freedom will probably have more effect. This base real world then is but a ceaseless collection of various forces and powers intermixing with one another.

    -Our being is not natural through the unconscious self; it arises and is shaped by the forces external from us. However not all beings become entwined in the external forces that shape them, for the self may itself be something that alters our being. Therefore, some individuals become the force that redefines whom they are.

    -To hold mastery over thyself and being, and ensure that my ideal being become reality, and embrace this magnificence in its whole, this is what I will. But for that alone is not enough. Indeed, it would be wonderful to just embrace a new being as is, but once death rears its head, that essential being will be gone, and soon to follow, forgotten. I do not desire such obscurity; I want the world to know of my ultimate achievement; for in preserving an image as such beyond death I can create a legacy for myself, and thus extend the life of my being beyond my own life, transcending that burden that is death.

    -Good-evil, order-chaos, positive-negative, false dichotomies of all sorts are but arbitrary distinctions that we place upon life in order to understand it better. Through these false judgments we can still derive practical value within life, and thus their use can be good for us (although not indefinitely, especially in the case of good and evil). The same can be said for language, archetypes, and typology, among many other classifications of things.

    -From the process of redefining my being and becoming wholly individualistic, so too do I adopt a personal method of ethics for myself, one based off my experience of life, and right for me.

  9. #9
    Member bunnyhighbrow's Avatar
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    I basically get dominant Fi, with waves of Ne and Te. Fi is first stop for understanding ourselves, the other two help to project that onto bigger things. When INFP talks about the external world, I still get that 'darkness within' they see inside themselves.

    Anyway, good job! You've captured many sentiments that i can relate to. There are some that I would disagree with you on though, but you're probably just more hardcore than I am ^^.

  10. #10
    Junior Member cen98's Avatar
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    I haven't read all of your posts yet, but it's very interesting! and it makes me happy when people think about these things because I think everyone should and not enough people actually do. Have you ever taken philosophy classes? Meta-ethics, Kant vs Hume etc. it sounds like you would love it, although Kant is ten kinds of difficult to read. You sound like a deontologist which is how I lean. Although only at its most basic level of "do unto others", some people get nit-picky with the details of willing or not willing harm, just taking it too literally. But utilitarianism should be used as a back-up plan, or for less serious moral dilemmas like laughing at someone's occasional suffering

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