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[Fi] Why does everyone hate on Fi?

Random Ness

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Alright, NegativeZero, I apologize for singling you out.

Everyone else, age affects people. We're starting to run around in circles so go debate with someone else.
 
G

Glycerine

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I got to say regardless of his age, NegativeZero seems to make good points. Now I am curious if people are going to judge me because I admitted I am 21..... dun dun dun.
 

NegativeZero

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Alright, NegativeZero, I apologize for singling you out.

Everyone else, age affects people. We're starting to run around in circles so go debate with someone else.

Hey, no need to apologize! I didn't take it too personally. :) I can't blame you for saying what you did.
 

OrangeAppled

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I don't think this is so much a feeling thing as a weird characteristic of certain individuals, wouldn't you say?

Well, I think it's poor use of Feeling in an individual (even if that individual is a T), and that poor use is often a result of some emotion blown out of proportion. So it's no a Feeling thing as in, exclusive to Feelers, no.
 

onemoretime

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I think you're confusing the terms 'brain' and 'mind.' I don't actually know if non-physical thoughts are reducible to physical brain states (the materialist would most certainly hope so), but I am also not sure if that's the most problematic assertion in your post. Before someone strawmans me, I am NOT denying the connection between the brain and the mind. This topic is better suited to the philosophy forum, so if anyone is interested in idealism v. dualism v. physicalism debates, I'd be more than happy to contribute to a thread. :)

I find it odd that your sentiment is, "arrogance is blinding, and everyone is definitely somehow arrogant at 17." Perhaps I'm taking you too seriously, but this is not a valid argument at all, you know. ;)

However, allow me to digress. I am sure when 22-25 happen to me, I will definitely think of my 17 year old self as an idiot. I already think of my three to six months ago self as an idiot, so years should make a huge difference. An interesting note is I've always found people in their early 20s to be unconscionably pretentious and arrogant, whereas I've always perceived teenagers to fundamentally lack wisdom and foresight; and they thereby seem foolish/immature/reckless rather than arrogant.

Not confusing anything.

Question, though - why do you reflexively separate yourself from those qualities and descriptions that you criticize others for?
 

Orangey

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You were like, "So you're saying teens can never, ever be wise?!?!?!?" which I wasn't.

Right, that's why I was wondering why your point about brain development was relevant.

WTF? It's not a factor? Why are you interested in things like MBTI then? Is MBTI not a factor of knowing how someone will act?

I gave my argument as to why it's not a factor when we're talking about groups of people. Also, what is your point about MBTI? I'm confused as to how that's related at all to what I was saying. [And, just for accuracy's sake, no, MBTI does not allow us to reliably predict behaviors.]

Everyone else, age affects people. We're starting to run around in circles so go debate with someone else.

:rolli:
 

NegativeZero

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1. Not confusing anything.

2. Question, though - why do you reflexively separate yourself from those qualities and descriptions that you criticize others for?

1. Well, I'm sorely tempted to argue with you here, but I won't. After all, it isn't really relevant to what we're discussing or your question.

2. I don't, and I'm sorry if it seems like that. I wasn't saying that I'm some an omniscient, rare, and infinitely wise teenager. I am sorry if I didn't answer your question, but I can't do that when there is a proposition in the question I do not agree with. I will always be gaining wisdom, and I will always be looking down at my younger self. This won't change no matter how old I get. If I may offer an answer as to why it seems like I "reflexively separate myself from those qualities and descriptions," I would say I view wisdom as attainable for as long as someone is living.

I have a lot to learn and concede there are wiser folks than me. The difference is, I acknowledge that we all have a lot to learn, and we can all learn something from someone else. Yes, even me. :p
 

onemoretime

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1. Well, I'm sorely tempted to argue with you here, but I won't. After all, it isn't really relevant to what we're discussing or your question.

Sure it is. It's a lot harder to argue your proposition from a materialist perspective, specifically because we know there are distinct material changes in brain structure during adulthood.

2. I don't, and I'm sorry if it seems like that. I wasn't saying that I'm some an omniscient, rare, and infinitely wise teenager. I am sorry if I didn't answer your question, but I can't do that when there is a proposition in the question I do not agree with. I will always be gaining wisdom, and I will always be looking down at my younger self. This won't change no matter how old I get. If I may offer an answer as to why it seems like I "reflexively separate myself from those qualities and descriptions," I would say I view wisdom as attainable for as long as someone is living.

Here's the first thing that young people get hung up on when it comes to life - you don't get to take it on your own terms. You have to take it as it comes. Unfortunately, life is all about answering questions, the propositions of which you don't agree with. The only proposition I made was that you were reflexively separating yourself from the objects of your criticism. You may have interpreted that as a comment on your inner cognition. It was not. It was a description of your behavior as I perceived it. To reject that proposition is to reject my capacity to competently perceive the world around me.

This, my friend, is the subtle arrogance of youth. That we somehow perceive things better than those around us, instead of recognizing that we perceive them in different contexts, and what's more, no one's context is the right one.

Corresponding with it is the other arrogance - that life is something to be possessed. Wisdom is not attainable because wisdom is never had in the first place. The wise man does not own unique knowledge, but rather understands that he has been invited to the table by his forebears, and to share in their food, drink, conversation, and experiences thereof. He also understands that the feast is eternal as long as people continue to be invited, but each individual person's invitation only lasts until death. Thus, the idea of possessing wisdom is silly, because then, what happens to it after you die? It's an utter waste.

Of course, sitting at the table is a daunting prospect, and to think oneself unworthy of that seat will forever keep a person away. Thus, a wise person must forgive the naivete of youth, while understanding it his or herself in the first place.

I have a lot to learn and concede there are wiser folks than me. The difference is, I acknowledge that we all have a lot to learn, and we can all learn something from someone else. Yes, even me. :p

Another example of the subtle arrogance of youth - that the existence of wiser folks than oneself is something that must be conceded, rather than as given as the existence of the sun or the earth. There is no such thing as the wisest person on the earth, because any person only has a certain kind of wisdom. Wisdom is the process of keeping one's ears open. When you hear a very wise statement, it's not because of some special knowledge that the other person has, as much as it is that the other person took care to listen to what you were saying in the first place.

We don't have a lot to learn - there is a lot we can choose to learn. What's more, people choose to learn different things. What's a given, is that with age, a person has had the opportunity to learn far more than at the start.

In my estimation, a person is not truly wise until the age of 40 or so. This is because, before that age, a person has not had the opportunity to watch someone close to him or her grow from infancy to adulthood. That person has only experienced that process from a muddled, immature and subjective outlook, and not from a emotionally developed one. Once this is done, a person has fulfilled his or her biological imperative; that is, making sure the next generation survives to reproductive age.

In many ways, wisdom is the process of preparing those who are younger than you for life after you die. Your role goes from preserving a particular genome toward strengthening and preserving a cultural genome, the table of which I previously spoke.
 

Orangey

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Sure it is. It's a lot harder to argue your proposition from a materialist perspective, specifically because we know there are distinct material changes in brain structure during adulthood.

Here's the first thing that young people get hung up on when it comes to life - you don't get to take it on your own terms. You have to take it as it comes. Unfortunately, life is all about answering questions, the propositions of which you don't agree with. The only proposition I made was that you were reflexively separating yourself from the objects of your criticism. You may have interpreted that as a comment on your inner cognition. It was not. It was a description of your behavior as I perceived it. To reject that proposition is to reject my capacity to competently perceive the world around me.

This, my friend, is the subtle arrogance of youth. That we somehow perceive things better than those around us, instead of recognizing that we perceive them in different contexts, and what's more, no one's context is the right one.

Corresponding with it is the other arrogance - that life is something to be possessed. Wisdom is not attainable because wisdom is never had in the first place. The wise man does not own unique knowledge, but rather understands that he has been invited to the table by his forebears, and to share in their food, drink, conversation, and experiences thereof. He also understands that the feast is eternal as long as people continue to be invited, but each individual person's invitation only lasts until death. Thus, the idea of possessing wisdom is silly, because then, what happens to it after you die? It's an utter waste.

Of course, sitting at the table is a daunting prospect, and to think oneself unworthy of that seat will forever keep a person away. Thus, a wise person must forgive the naivete of youth, while understanding it his or herself in the first place.



Another example of the subtle arrogance of youth - that the existence of wiser folks than oneself is something that must be conceded, rather than as given as the existence of the sun or the earth. There is no such thing as the wisest person on the earth, because any person only has a certain kind of wisdom. Wisdom is the process of keeping one's ears open. When you hear a very wise statement, it's not because of some special knowledge that the other person has, as much as it is that the other person took care to listen to what you were saying in the first place.

We don't have a lot to learn - there is a lot we can choose to learn. What's more, people choose to learn different things. What's a given, is that with age, a person has had the opportunity to learn far more than at the start.

In my estimation, a person is not truly wise until the age of 40 or so. This is because, before that age, a person has not had the opportunity to watch someone close to him or her grow from infancy to adulthood. That person has only experienced that process from a muddled, immature and subjective outlook, and not from a emotionally developed one. Once this is done, a person has fulfilled his or her biological imperative; that is, making sure the next generation survives to reproductive age.

In many ways, wisdom is the process of preparing those who are younger than you for life after you die. Your role goes from preserving a particular genome toward strengthening and preserving a cultural genome, the table of which I previously spoke.


Oh boy, windbag much? From what mount are you speaking?
 

Thalassa

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Mount ENTP!

And if you stick around for few days, you might be able to hear one of my famous sermons on Mount ENFP.
 

StrawMan

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I'm not sure if I understand Fi correctly, but sometimes it FEELS like Fi is too arbitrary and not just enough.
 

Thalassa

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I'm not sure if I understand Fi correctly, but sometimes it FEELS like Fi is too arbitrary and not just enough.

That's probably cuz you're an ENTP so you like your Feeling to be measured by the external environment, so Fi would feel slippy and meandering to you, just like I am an ENFP and I like my Thinking to be measured by the external environment, and this makes Ti seem convuluted and meandering to me.

Not always, let's not get ridiculous, but as a generality.
 

Random Ness

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Right, that's why I was wondering why your point about brain development was relevant.

And now I'm wondering the same for you. You are very adamantly against age being correlated with wisdom. So do you think age is never a factor? Aren't teenagers more likely to be less skilled than adults? Aren't teenagers more likely to have less collective experiences than adults? Aren't teenagers more likely to make decisions based on impulses than adults? Of course it isn't a super strong correlation. But do you admit there is a pattern or not?

I brought up MBTI because, if you think age is hardly ever a factor, then by that logic, you should not be interested in MBTI at all because it's just another "useless" factor for understanding people.
 

Random Ness

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This, my friend, is the subtle arrogance of youth. That we somehow perceive things better than those around us, instead of recognizing that we perceive them in different contexts, and what's more, no one's context is the right one.

This is what I was originally concerned about. But this shows me it probably isn't a problem:

NegativeZero said:
I have a lot to learn and concede there are wiser folks than me. The difference is, I acknowledge that we all have a lot to learn, and we can all learn something from someone else. Yes, even me. :p

onemoretime said:
a person has not had the opportunity to watch someone close to him or her grow from infancy to adulthood. That person has only experienced that process from a muddled, immature and subjective outlook, and not from a emotionally developed one. Once this is done, a person has fulfilled his or her biological imperative; that is, making sure the next generation survives to reproductive age.

Hmmm. Well, I think of understanding something as the amount of time and effort and sacrifice you've put into it. So, someone who's raised a child probably has a greater understanding of the process of what it takes to help someone grow up properly. You could go the obvious way and say it like this--someone who's had a high school degree doesn't know as much about chemistry as someone who has a Bachelor's degree in it. You could go farther and say it like this--someone who's never gone through trauma doesn't know as much about pain as someone who has frequent panic attacks because of a traumatic past.
 

KatharineML

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Not sure if this thread is over or not but thought I'd add my twopennyworth. I find Fi auxiliary users difficult because they are super sensitive toward themselves, yet shockingly insensitive towards others when they themselves are hurt. They attack. Obviously, this hurts, and means others might 'hate on them' in return. Others (like myself) don't hate them, but do keep a bit of a distance, become wary, aren't as able to be honest with them. Bad cycle. Not sure how to help with it though as the ENFP's and ESFP's I know and love seem to do this almost on auto pilot - the only way I handle it is by realising it's a shallow response and doesn't mean a great deal so not to sweat it too much.
 

Standuble

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Not sure if this thread is over or not but thought I'd add my twopennyworth. I find Fi auxiliary users difficult because they are super sensitive toward themselves, yet shockingly insensitive towards others when they themselves are hurt. They attack. Obviously, this hurts, and means others might 'hate on them' in return. Others (like myself) don't hate them, but do keep a bit of a distance, become wary, aren't as able to be honest with them. Bad cycle. Not sure how to help with it though as the ENFP's and ESFP's I know and love seem to do this almost on auto pilot - the only way I handle it is by realising it's a shallow response and doesn't mean a great deal so not to sweat it too much.

A shallow response? In relation to what? It's the other way around; the Ne is the shallow response whilst the Fi is what they value and desire.
 

KatharineML

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A shallow response? In relation to what? It's the other way around; the Ne is the shallow response whilst the Fi is what they value and desire.

Yes, I know what you mean. However, often the reaction is out of proportion to the actual hurt. It's as if any slight touch on their values and desires, even a helpful critique, can cause them to feel attacked. Because of this, when their initial feelings have calmed down and they can see things in a more realistic perspective again, they tend to forgive and forget quite quickly. It really WAS a shallow hurt, and, so long as it is not tapping into a deeper psychological hurt or unconfessed 'sin' (which sometimes it is), they see this and it all blows over.

That's why I don't sweat it too much. I know they'll see sense when they've calmed down, and I know I didn't actually attack them!
 

Poindexter Arachnid

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Fi users are often self-righteous, irrational, self-obsessed, catty, transparently manipulative, pretentious, egocentric...the list goes on and on and on. The better question is: What is there to LIKE about Fi?
 
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