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  1. #221
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    Alright, NegativeZero, I apologize for singling you out.

    Everyone else, age affects people. We're starting to run around in circles so go debate with someone else.

  2. #222
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    I got to say regardless of his age, NegativeZero seems to make good points. Now I am curious if people are going to judge me because I admitted I am 21..... dun dun dun.

  3. #223
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Alright, NegativeZero, I apologize for singling you out.

    Everyone else, age affects people. We're starting to run around in circles so go debate with someone else.
    Hey, no need to apologize! I didn't take it too personally. I can't blame you for saying what you did.
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  4. #224
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    I don't think this is so much a feeling thing as a weird characteristic of certain individuals, wouldn't you say?
    Well, I think it's poor use of Feeling in an individual (even if that individual is a T), and that poor use is often a result of some emotion blown out of proportion. So it's no a Feeling thing as in, exclusive to Feelers, no.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #225
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    I think you're confusing the terms 'brain' and 'mind.' I don't actually know if non-physical thoughts are reducible to physical brain states (the materialist would most certainly hope so), but I am also not sure if that's the most problematic assertion in your post. Before someone strawmans me, I am NOT denying the connection between the brain and the mind. This topic is better suited to the philosophy forum, so if anyone is interested in idealism v. dualism v. physicalism debates, I'd be more than happy to contribute to a thread.

    I find it odd that your sentiment is, "arrogance is blinding, and everyone is definitely somehow arrogant at 17." Perhaps I'm taking you too seriously, but this is not a valid argument at all, you know.

    However, allow me to digress. I am sure when 22-25 happen to me, I will definitely think of my 17 year old self as an idiot. I already think of my three to six months ago self as an idiot, so years should make a huge difference. An interesting note is I've always found people in their early 20s to be unconscionably pretentious and arrogant, whereas I've always perceived teenagers to fundamentally lack wisdom and foresight; and they thereby seem foolish/immature/reckless rather than arrogant.
    Not confusing anything.

    Question, though - why do you reflexively separate yourself from those qualities and descriptions that you criticize others for?

  6. #226
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    You were like, "So you're saying teens can never, ever be wise?!?!?!?" which I wasn't.
    Right, that's why I was wondering why your point about brain development was relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    WTF? It's not a factor? Why are you interested in things like MBTI then? Is MBTI not a factor of knowing how someone will act?
    I gave my argument as to why it's not a factor when we're talking about groups of people. Also, what is your point about MBTI? I'm confused as to how that's related at all to what I was saying. [And, just for accuracy's sake, no, MBTI does not allow us to reliably predict behaviors.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Ness View Post
    Everyone else, age affects people. We're starting to run around in circles so go debate with someone else.
    :rolli:
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  7. #227
    Senior Member NegativeZero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    1. Not confusing anything.

    2. Question, though - why do you reflexively separate yourself from those qualities and descriptions that you criticize others for?
    1. Well, I'm sorely tempted to argue with you here, but I won't. After all, it isn't really relevant to what we're discussing or your question.

    2. I don't, and I'm sorry if it seems like that. I wasn't saying that I'm some an omniscient, rare, and infinitely wise teenager. I am sorry if I didn't answer your question, but I can't do that when there is a proposition in the question I do not agree with. I will always be gaining wisdom, and I will always be looking down at my younger self. This won't change no matter how old I get. If I may offer an answer as to why it seems like I "reflexively separate myself from those qualities and descriptions," I would say I view wisdom as attainable for as long as someone is living.

    I have a lot to learn and concede there are wiser folks than me. The difference is, I acknowledge that we all have a lot to learn, and we can all learn something from someone else. Yes, even me. :P
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  8. #228
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NegativeZero View Post
    1. Well, I'm sorely tempted to argue with you here, but I won't. After all, it isn't really relevant to what we're discussing or your question.
    Sure it is. It's a lot harder to argue your proposition from a materialist perspective, specifically because we know there are distinct material changes in brain structure during adulthood.

    2. I don't, and I'm sorry if it seems like that. I wasn't saying that I'm some an omniscient, rare, and infinitely wise teenager. I am sorry if I didn't answer your question, but I can't do that when there is a proposition in the question I do not agree with. I will always be gaining wisdom, and I will always be looking down at my younger self. This won't change no matter how old I get. If I may offer an answer as to why it seems like I "reflexively separate myself from those qualities and descriptions," I would say I view wisdom as attainable for as long as someone is living.
    Here's the first thing that young people get hung up on when it comes to life - you don't get to take it on your own terms. You have to take it as it comes. Unfortunately, life is all about answering questions, the propositions of which you don't agree with. The only proposition I made was that you were reflexively separating yourself from the objects of your criticism. You may have interpreted that as a comment on your inner cognition. It was not. It was a description of your behavior as I perceived it. To reject that proposition is to reject my capacity to competently perceive the world around me.

    This, my friend, is the subtle arrogance of youth. That we somehow perceive things better than those around us, instead of recognizing that we perceive them in different contexts, and what's more, no one's context is the right one.

    Corresponding with it is the other arrogance - that life is something to be possessed. Wisdom is not attainable because wisdom is never had in the first place. The wise man does not own unique knowledge, but rather understands that he has been invited to the table by his forebears, and to share in their food, drink, conversation, and experiences thereof. He also understands that the feast is eternal as long as people continue to be invited, but each individual person's invitation only lasts until death. Thus, the idea of possessing wisdom is silly, because then, what happens to it after you die? It's an utter waste.

    Of course, sitting at the table is a daunting prospect, and to think oneself unworthy of that seat will forever keep a person away. Thus, a wise person must forgive the naivete of youth, while understanding it his or herself in the first place.

    I have a lot to learn and concede there are wiser folks than me. The difference is, I acknowledge that we all have a lot to learn, and we can all learn something from someone else. Yes, even me. :P
    Another example of the subtle arrogance of youth - that the existence of wiser folks than oneself is something that must be conceded, rather than as given as the existence of the sun or the earth. There is no such thing as the wisest person on the earth, because any person only has a certain kind of wisdom. Wisdom is the process of keeping one's ears open. When you hear a very wise statement, it's not because of some special knowledge that the other person has, as much as it is that the other person took care to listen to what you were saying in the first place.

    We don't have a lot to learn - there is a lot we can choose to learn. What's more, people choose to learn different things. What's a given, is that with age, a person has had the opportunity to learn far more than at the start.

    In my estimation, a person is not truly wise until the age of 40 or so. This is because, before that age, a person has not had the opportunity to watch someone close to him or her grow from infancy to adulthood. That person has only experienced that process from a muddled, immature and subjective outlook, and not from a emotionally developed one. Once this is done, a person has fulfilled his or her biological imperative; that is, making sure the next generation survives to reproductive age.

    In many ways, wisdom is the process of preparing those who are younger than you for life after you die. Your role goes from preserving a particular genome toward strengthening and preserving a cultural genome, the table of which I previously spoke.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sure it is. It's a lot harder to argue your proposition from a materialist perspective, specifically because we know there are distinct material changes in brain structure during adulthood.

    Here's the first thing that young people get hung up on when it comes to life - you don't get to take it on your own terms. You have to take it as it comes. Unfortunately, life is all about answering questions, the propositions of which you don't agree with. The only proposition I made was that you were reflexively separating yourself from the objects of your criticism. You may have interpreted that as a comment on your inner cognition. It was not. It was a description of your behavior as I perceived it. To reject that proposition is to reject my capacity to competently perceive the world around me.

    This, my friend, is the subtle arrogance of youth. That we somehow perceive things better than those around us, instead of recognizing that we perceive them in different contexts, and what's more, no one's context is the right one.

    Corresponding with it is the other arrogance - that life is something to be possessed. Wisdom is not attainable because wisdom is never had in the first place. The wise man does not own unique knowledge, but rather understands that he has been invited to the table by his forebears, and to share in their food, drink, conversation, and experiences thereof. He also understands that the feast is eternal as long as people continue to be invited, but each individual person's invitation only lasts until death. Thus, the idea of possessing wisdom is silly, because then, what happens to it after you die? It's an utter waste.

    Of course, sitting at the table is a daunting prospect, and to think oneself unworthy of that seat will forever keep a person away. Thus, a wise person must forgive the naivete of youth, while understanding it his or herself in the first place.



    Another example of the subtle arrogance of youth - that the existence of wiser folks than oneself is something that must be conceded, rather than as given as the existence of the sun or the earth. There is no such thing as the wisest person on the earth, because any person only has a certain kind of wisdom. Wisdom is the process of keeping one's ears open. When you hear a very wise statement, it's not because of some special knowledge that the other person has, as much as it is that the other person took care to listen to what you were saying in the first place.

    We don't have a lot to learn - there is a lot we can choose to learn. What's more, people choose to learn different things. What's a given, is that with age, a person has had the opportunity to learn far more than at the start.

    In my estimation, a person is not truly wise until the age of 40 or so. This is because, before that age, a person has not had the opportunity to watch someone close to him or her grow from infancy to adulthood. That person has only experienced that process from a muddled, immature and subjective outlook, and not from a emotionally developed one. Once this is done, a person has fulfilled his or her biological imperative; that is, making sure the next generation survives to reproductive age.

    In many ways, wisdom is the process of preparing those who are younger than you for life after you die. Your role goes from preserving a particular genome toward strengthening and preserving a cultural genome, the table of which I previously spoke.

    Oh boy, windbag much? From what mount are you speaking?
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  10. #230
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    Mount ENTP!

    And if you stick around for few days, you might be able to hear one of my famous sermons on Mount ENFP.

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