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  1. #111
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I see Fi is responsible for persecution complexes.
    Can you believe that?

    I say we teach those Fi orients a lesson and stab them with pitch forks.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Fi is the counterpole of linear logic.
    It is the least useful function.

    Everyone does not hate on Fi.
    Fi does not hate on everyone.

    Use has limits.
    So has vanity.
    I got some linear logic for ya:

    All functions are the least useful function.

    Booya!

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Fi is the counterpole of linear logic.
    It is the least useful function.

    Everyone does not hate on Fi.
    Fi does not hate on everyone.

    Use has limits.
    So has vanity.
    Fi is neither useless nor exclusively about vanity.

    It is intrapersonal intelligence. Yes, intrapersonal intelligence is useful.

    Unless, once again, we are opposing it to Te. It is more accurate to say Te is the most "useful" and then say Fi is "not useful" by Te standards.

    But to compare it to Ti and say it isn't useful is kind of absurd.

  3. #113
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I wouldn't necessarily disagree with Orangey. The positive side of it, I suppose, is that it's often helped me notice the persecuted too. Or at least, try to find some way of understanding them. Not trying to say I have some uber-empathic abilities or anything, but whatever persecution I've experienced doesn't just begin and end at self-absorbed whinyness. I understand if that's what an ETJ would think though - because that's exactly what their Fi is when it shows up.

  4. #114
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, it's a way of prioritizing data to, in a sense, honor the self. And there are some aspects of living that seem unquantifiable/unimportant to T perspectives that, if ignored, still leave an individual personally unhappy and have to be resolved somehow... even if one cannot justify one's needs from a rational perspective to the people.

    I can't say I'm its biggest fan, but I see its value depending on the circumstance.
    That's really interesting. I hope I don't sound like a twit for saying this because I really respect and enjoy reading your opinion - so I don't want this to come out wrong. But I find it really hard imagining the world from the perspective of someone who begrudgingly accepts the idea that knowing who you are and what is important is only marginally important. I mean, I'm constantly asking myself, "Is this really who I am? Is this really what I want? Will this bring me further in life? Will other people really benefit from this? Where does this fit in the grand scheme of things?" And trying to imagine a world without that is like taking my essence and drowning it.

    That's not to say I don't respect your perspective. On the contrary, I'm trying to imagine it, but find myself remiss in being able to do so....It's really interesting how we can be so different.

    For example, to me everything else can be in order and perfect (as perfect as our modern world gets) but if my inner being isn't in order, everything's messed up.

  5. #115
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    According to Jungian theory, all introverted functions lend the subject a sense of empathy. Of course, empathy, in this context, is not exclusive to emotion. Generally, it's placing yourself into the shoes of another, whether it be a person or an object. Therefore, introverted functions play a significant role in personification and anthropomorphism. Introverted feeling is probably involved in recreating the "ideal", searching for one's own personal preferences, and being able to assume the preferences of other individuals.

    How this is less useful than Ti escapes me.

    Extraverted functions, on the other hand, are somewhat responsible for sympathy, and making broader assumptions about how the subject conforms to the people or places surrounding it. Extraverted feeling would probably motivate us to ask ourselves "how would most people evaluate this thing?", or more importantly, "how would my immediate social atmosphere evaluate this thing?".

    In the broader scope of things, a person who relies too heavily on Fi may appear to be a whiny bitch if they can't see outside of their own value system long enough to recognize that their feelings aren't the security clearance at the airport where everyone has to be scrutinized just because the Fi tantrum thrower is racist against 'towel heads'.

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  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    That's really interesting. I hope I don't sound like a twit for saying this because I really respect and enjoy reading your opinion - so I don't want this to come out wrong. But I find it really hard imagining the world from the perspective of someone who begrudgingly accepts the idea that knowing who you are and what is important is only marginally important. I mean, I'm constantly asking myself, "Is this really who I am? Is this really what I want? Will this bring me further in life? Will other people really benefit from this? Where does this fit in the grand scheme of things?" And trying to imagine a world without that is like taking my essence and drowning it.

    That's not to say I don't respect your perspective. On the contrary, I'm trying to imagine it, but find myself remiss in being able to do so....It's really interesting how we can be so different.
    Oh, no worries, and no, I don't think it came out wrong.

    Actually, it's hard being T sometimes -- at least it has been for me.
    I have to be fair in situations I do not want to be fair in.
    Reasoned in situations I want to be emotional.
    Detached from situations I want to engage with passion.
    Picky about logical wording when I'd rather be casual.
    Skeptical when I'd rather be sympathetic.

    But I just ... can't be another way.
    I try.
    It's like a planet trying to be in a different orbit than the one physics has decreed for it.

    I think I've always done better with your latter two questions.
    Will other people really benefit from this? (Due to Fe being my learned interpersonal pattern, i find it easier to give others their due than me.)
    Where does this fit into the grand scheme? (That's pretty N, to me.)

    I can find ways to include myself, but it comes more from a big-picture systematic approach: Where do I, with my unique abilities and talents and thinking and life experience, best serve the system I'm part of in order to make it function most efficiently? Instead of operating with an internal personal compass, I usually operated with a big-picture sense where I would basically let situations and environments dictate what my choices were.

    This actually is also a valid way to approach things, but it has its plusses and minuses. And I think there is some deep part of oneself that needs to be exposed, engaged, and honored if someone is to be ultimately happy. I really did not begin my "adventures in Fi" on a personal level until maybe the last five years, and it brought very drastic, painful changes to my life. Basically, I did reach that point where, after squishing myself down and approaching myself so impersonally over the yeasr, I simply could no longer go on unless I started honoring my own needs.

    But until then, I couldn't really tell the difference between my own needs vs wants, as well as the difference between "fitting into the system as it exists, in the best possible way" vs "creating a niche for myself and letting a system develop around me." The latter always had felt extremely crass and selfish to me, and literally everyone in my environment would put pressure on me if I drifted in that direction, so even when I realized I needed to "find me" in here somewhere and honor that "me," it took me a long long time to build up strength where I could deal that consistent pressure and take care of myself if and when the system spit me out.

    So that's kinda how my comments tie into Fi.
    I find it necessary, as part of being a complete person.
    I just don't always "get it" and/or prioritize it, but it definitely plays the sort of role you suggest it does.

    For example, to me everything else can be in order and perfect (as perfect as our modern world gets) but if my inner being isn't in order, everything's messed up.
    Yeah, and I'm kind of back in that rut again. When my inner world is messed up, my outer world starts to go unstable and messy. It's funny, but that's how you can tell how stable inside I'm feeling: Look at the persistent state of my bedroom and eventually the entire house.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Fi is neither useless nor exclusively about vanity.

    It is intrapersonal intelligence. Yes, intrapersonal intelligence is useful.

    Unless, once again, we are opposing it to Te. It is more accurate to say Te is the most "useful" and then say Fi is "not useful" by Te standards.

    But to compare it to Ti and say it isn't useful is kind of absurd.
    I don't want to assume I have a total handle on what wildcat is saying, but knowing his posting style, I think you're taking his comments far too literally. You'd probably be closer to the mark if you'd interpret "useful" as practically/pragmatically useful. You're also reading his comments as referring to Ti, when I think you'd do better to realize he's probably talking about Te, not Ti ("linear logic"). Look at his comments again:

    Fi is the counterpole of linear logic.
    It is the least useful function.

    Everyone does not hate on Fi.
    Fi does not hate on everyone.

    Use has limits.
    So has vanity.
    Fi is the opposite of Te and/or linear, practical logic.

    It is the least "useful" function -- IOW, it doesn't bring practical defined results and/or procedures that can be specifically and easily applied to resolve concrete problems... and in fact it is a "fuzzy" logic often only understandable by the individual in question,

    Non-Fi People don't hate Fi people, nor vice versa.

    Te (AKA detached utilitarianism) has its limits.
    So does Fi (AKA internal personal congruence).

    Make more sense now?
    I think you completely misread what he meant by his post, it was far more supportive than you realized.



    EDIT: Okay, my detail Se-tardness took hold. You did say this in the middle, whereas I scanned and just caught the bookends of your comments. Sorry. But yes, I think you've got it, there, with that middle part.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #118
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Why has no one called them on this? Look at what we have: (1) Fi is responsible for the Declaration of Independence and civil liberties, (2) only NJs and NPs question authority, and (3) NPs have been historically persecuted. WTF.
    I think you're drawing the wrong conclusions. I never said Fi was 100% responsible for these things, but it was necessary for all of them to transpire.


    While I still disagree with you, Negative Zero, that Fi (or being INFP, for that matter) is a "useless" function IRL - since you'd need to seriously qualify what you mean by the term "useless" - I do agree that ethics as a field of study is certainly not the exclusive province of Fi. Nor is personal moral behavior.
    similarly, Fi may not account for all of personal ethics/behaviors, but it is a necessary component. people don't respect Fi because they do not see it's many contributions to the world of personal ethics and behavior. I would argue that knowing one's self at all on a deeper level (past simple observation of past experiences) or having convictions on any sort of issue necessitates using Fi. the same way that everyone uses Se to respond to the traffic light turning green, Si to follow a schedule on a repeat basis or Te to make a practical decision.
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  9. #119
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Well, I don't think I'm superior. In fact, I don't think most relatively mature Fi users would think they are superior. But I guess everyone's different. My point of view is: "Okay, I'm sure I'm right about this. But to each his own. If he doesn't screw around with me, I won't screw around with him. But if he does screw around with me, the panzer divisions are coming out, and you're TOAST."
    I guess Fi's are more badass than the huggy-bunny, smell-the-flowers, avoid-all-conflict treehuggers they pretend to be sometimes?

    ... actually, I'm not sure why this has to be war at all.
    How inconvenient.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #120
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    reconsidering INFP after reading these posts
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

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