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  1. #81
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    So, what kind of "playing around with Ti situationally" would you consider as crossing the line into something that is wrong? Is it at the point where it hurts people or is it something prior or different from that?
    I don't think all ENTPs would necessarily cross any lines, but if they did, it's just that Ti might produce some line of reasoning that doesn't get the nuances of a friendly approach right, so to speak. Maybe it's relatively harmless and funny - like the Larry David show. =D At the same time, it could get unfunny. Some ETPs might neglect thinking about a lot of this, and just feed off on what seems useful in a social situation as it develops. It could lead to inconsistent behavior or coming up with some idea that's more radical or generally out of line (but they saw as the most useful thing in that moment). We all do this to an extent, but I'm under the impression that ETPs can be the most free about it.

    Second, I do think some really are into the whole devil's advocate/trollish thing. That is definitely a more situational, liberal use of Ti. I think INTPs are more stringent and serious about their views. If an ENTP was inclined to do this a lot, be argumentative just for kicks, then it's going to piss some people off.

  2. #82
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I'll ask it bluntly: Why do you guys not clearly express what Fi is feeling/thinking? If you're upset, mad, angry, disappointed, frustrated, feeling ignored/betrayed, etc. - why not just tell the other person exactlly what those feelings are, which then gives that other person something tangible to work with. Basically, my confusion with this part of Fi is that if you never voice what's going on inside (plainly, clearly), then you'll probably never get any results that resemble what you're hoping for/wanting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Along with those lines, too, I've had issues with INFP guys not just coming out and saying what they want.
    I think nolla answered these well but I have to add that sometimes we just have to be asked outright. Some may squirm (and if this happens its best to drop it) but I often appreciate when someone will just cut through the crap and ask me what I think about something. If it is done sensitively and with genuine interest in understanding me I am often keen to oblige. Mostly we feel like people aren't interested enough or patient enough to try and understand us and so we hold back. Its easier in our minds to shut down and be miserable than actually deal with the situation; we are used to being constantly dissatisfied and accept this fate too readily. We assume (as is usually the case) that opening up will result in our feelings being devalued or misunderstood - and to us, being constantly dissatisfied is preferable to having your heart stamped on just once. Sometimes we need to be reminded that a little openness can be a valuable thing and that there are people out there that care enough to make an effort for us.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #83
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    I'll have to add that for a type that is supposedly highly self-aware and non-judgmental, INFPs are extremely hard on ourselves and are bad judges of our own self-worth. We might feel that we don't deserve that bright, red Ferrari even if freely offered.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #84
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I definitely have "serious" questions concerning Fi (Fi is an interesting animal) but it's been my experience that Fi'ers really don't want/like those serious questions - and sometimes the dialogue becomes delicate, stressful, or even heated (both IRL and on the forum). So, if my question fits the "uncomfortable" category, just politely let me know and I'll skip on my merry way. I come not to stir up the pot, but to understand the animal that is Fi.

    I'll ask it bluntly: Why do you guys not clearly express what Fi is feeling/thinking? If you're upset, mad, angry, disappointed, frustrated, feeling ignored/betrayed, etc. - why not just tell the other person exactlly what those feelings are, which then gives that other person something tangible to work with. Basically, my confusion with this part of Fi is that if you never voice what's going on inside (plainly, clearly), then you'll probably never get any results that resemble what you're hoping for/wanting.
    I express my Feelings a lot, as far as my judgments go. I hold back if my Feeling is so, well, critical that it would be of no benefit to anyone.

    If I don't have much of an opinion, it is because I don't care. If I just go with the flow, it's because I don't care. If I see the movie you want to see nearly everytime, it's because I don't care about any other movies. When a movie comes along that I want to see, then I will make it known & see it.

    Another thing is, the Fi mindset does not like to affect other people nor be affected. We kind of want to do our own thing & let others do their own thing. We don't want to make other people responsible for our feelings - feelings meaning both reasoned out conclusions & emotions. This means we do not push for our way a lot with other people. We'll pursue what we want on our own time, which is likely why many of us like a lot of space in relationships. In general, we often don't care about a lot of stuff other people care about & we care a lot about stuff other people don't even think about. This means we're not giving up our preference so much as no having one in those situations, but when we do have a preference, we will ask you to take note.

    Now as for emotional feelings, I do not express those for some of the reason stated above - I don't feel the need to influence others with my emotions. Emotions communicate significance to others, and Fi-doms tend to see valuation as an individual process (whereas for Fe, it's very much a consensus process). Emotions are then internalized and processed as a part of an ideal forming process. This is only unsuccessful when the other person really is doing harm & needs to be told to stop - unfortunately, many Fi-dom just blow up at that point. The Ne aspect allows one to creatively dodge confrontation also. Much of the time, stuff just doesn't seem worth the energy....

    If we confront in a healthy manner, we often seek a win-win, because the idea of implying our values are more important is yucky. It's too easy to see the tables flipped; we'd never want someone to do that to us. I suppose the win-win approach seems passive or maybe compromising in negative way to non-NFs, but I think it's a very positive style. I've never had a real problem asserting my preferences when necessary, so I can't say I relate to the very passive INFP stereotype. I'm known amongst family/friends for being pretty blunt & only accommodating when it's not a major sacrifice to my own needs (and I mean valid needs here, not sheer selfishness). I also don't want to make others obligated to my individual preferences either though.

    As for emotions, when Fi-dom express emotions, they may do so without much show, which leads others to not take it seriously. People frequently question the depth & authenticity of my emotions because I am not prone to dramatic display. Fi-dom are a LOT less expressive than people online in these MBTI communities seem to realize.... Anyhow, when you have your emotions invalidated, you tend to not bother communicating them.

    Which brings me to the next point....Fi feelings, both the feeling-thoughts & emotions, are often out of sync with those around them.
    Expressing all of your feelings candidly can mean:
    1. you offend, shock, and/or alienate people; they cannot grasp nor accept what you are telling them because no one else feels that way...it's too abstract/weird/foreign for them
    2. your feelings are judged as wrong, strange, or invalid, and by extension, so are you
    3. your feelings are so conceptual in nature that explaining them in everyday terms is hard without losing meaning, and you wind up being misinterpreted
    4. you spend a lot of energy explaining something quite simple in your mind, only to result in one of the above, and so you just give up

    I can't tell you how often my feelings are questioned, invalidated or judged negatively because they are not expressed in the way others do, are not what others often feel in such situations, or they are hard to express accurately, so nuances are lost, and I wind up misunderstood. Not to say no one every understands me or does not make the effort, but the back & forth to reach an understanding is tiring. Again, it just doesn't feel worth the effort sometimes.

    Also, Fi asks for an appropriate expression for a feeling, which is hard to find. The depth & nuance of Fi feelings go beyond the neat little list of adjectives most use to describe feelings. Those words feel cheap, shallow, trite, phony, and generally inadequate to express the feeling in full. Other means are often used, which allow for a greater depth of expression (ie. art, poetry, music, philosophy, etc). Those outlets allow an intensity that everyday communication doesn't because it's not within the frame of what is socially acceptable or "regular".

    If I could draw an analogy, it'd be something like this: The Fi'er really, really wants a shiny red sports car for their birthday (or a penguin, or a pony, or something along these lines). When someone asks you, "What would you like for your birthday?" (cuz they want to get you something you'll really like), you just say, "Ehhh, I dunno, a gift card"
    And, so, you end up getting a gift card and you feel upset or kind of sad that you didn't get the sports car. Well, you didn't get it cuz you didn't ask.

    Or, the Fi'er wants to spend time with someone they love. And they talk to the person they love on the phone and the person says, "Whatcha doing tonight?" And the Fi'er says, "Heh, not much." So, the other person thinks, "Hmmm, OK, they aren't doing much and I'd like to see them, but I know they like their space and I don't want to impose, so I'll just leave it at that and maybe see them next week sometime." Then they say, "OK Fi'er, good talking to you, we'll catch up next week." And then find out later that Fi'er was very upset and wanted them to come over.

    Why doesn't Fi'er just say, "Yo, check it out. I want a red sports car for my birthday and I also want you to come over tonight and hang out with me cuz I miss you." Straight up. Tell it like it is. Done! Finished! Wish granted. It can be so easy, so simple. But, instead, you never voice these Fi desires and so the other person..........never knows what it is you wanted. Inevitably, this will cause feelings of hurt and neglect and "he just doesn't know me".

    I've heard 2 different reasons for this "holding back": 1) It's hard and/or uncomfortable to express. 2) Fi'er doesn't want the other person to do something for them "just because they told them they wanted it" (thereby "prompting" the action); instead, Fi'er only wants things to be done for them without prompting, completely of the other person's free will.

    If I compare Fi to my own Ti, then yeah, I can relate that it's sometimes hard to express "complex thoughts" into mere words (and some things get lost in translation), but if I really want something, you better believe I'm coming out with it eventually.

    Why Fi'ers? Why?
    What you describe as preferable is a directive communication style....an INFJ might say that, but an INFP will use an informative style. It's not that an INFP won't tell you what they want, but the prefer to express a need/want in general & let you figure out how to accomplish it; or they'll ask in question form, so you have freedom of choice. Sometimes it annoys me when my INFJ bf tells me HOW to do something; it seems bossy and condescending. People tend to say things they way they want to be dealt with, and INFPs like freedom to do it their own way, so they give that to others.

    I'd say, "I love red sports cars & would love to get one for a gift someday" and "Not much; would you like to come over tonight & hang out?".

    If I don't ask for what I want, it's likely because it is too much to ask for (I mean, who really is going to buy a sports car for a gift except the very wealthy?), but then I also don't expect it. Even though I admit I dream big, I don't want to seem, well, high-maintenance or unreasonable, nor do I want a sense of being in debt to someone because they went all out for me. I'd rather buy that sports car (or whatever) for myself; it would mean much more to me. I learned a long time ago that most people don't give without expectation, and I want to be free of that, and I don't want to impose any expectations on others. I don't ask much of people so that I am not obligated to them..... When I was a kid, it did help that my grandparents would give a us a "budget" for gifts. They'd say we could pick anything out up to $200 or something. I had no problem naming stuff then.

    I also don't expect nor want people to read my mind. I can't relate to that...

    ---

    And I am apparently not an INFP of the playful Ne banter variety....

    /Fi wall of text
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #85
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    Feeling or ethics?

  6. #86
    Warflower Nijntje's Avatar
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    Theyre different things?

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  7. #87
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't think all ENTPs would necessarily cross any lines, but if they did, it's just that Ti might produce some line of reasoning that doesn't get the nuances of a friendly approach right, so to speak. Maybe it's relatively harmless and funny - like the Larry David show. =D At the same time, it could get unfunny. Some ETPs might neglect thinking about a lot of this, and just feed off on what seems useful in a social situation as it develops. It could lead to inconsistent behavior or coming up with some idea that's more radical or generally out of line (but they saw as the most useful thing in that moment). We all do this to an extent, but I'm under the impression that ETPs can be the most free about it.

    Second, I do think some really are into the whole devil's advocate/trollish thing. That is definitely a more situational, liberal use of Ti. I think INTPs are more stringent and serious about their views. If an ENTP was inclined to do this a lot, be argumentative just for kicks, then it's going to piss some people off.
    Yeah, the ENTPs are always fun to moderate, due to their approach as you have described it.
    And then a matter over how to offer a pattern for socially constructive behavior (so people can communicate), that might not fit within their natural patterns of communication.

    Usually if an INTP is jerking people around, it's just to jerk people around since the more typical focus is on "making a case" and "pointing out logical flaws." There tends to be a seriousness there, and devil's advocate is a tool to reach a goal (logical coherency) for INTP, where for ENTP it's possible it might be an end to itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think nolla answered these well but I have to add that sometimes we just have to be asked outright. Some may squirm (and if this happens its best to drop it) but I often appreciate when someone will just cut through the crap and ask me what I think about something.
    That's basically what I've had to do... and boy, was there squirming!

    Note that sometimes this avoidance can be pretty destructive; there was an incident in our relationship where I ended up being horribly, horribly hurt (which doesn't happen to me often) because the INFP had "vagafied" the request due to his discomfort/unwillingness to put himself out there, and I wasn't sure what I was agreeing to when I said yes. The misinformation it creates has the potential for being destructive, if one is not careful.

    If it is done sensitively and with genuine interest in understanding me I am often keen to oblige. Mostly we feel like people aren't interested enough or patient enough to try and understand us and so we hold back. Its easier in our minds to shut down and be miserable than actually deal with the situation; we are used to being constantly dissatisfied and accept this fate too readily. We assume (as is usually the case) that opening up will result in our feelings being devalued or misunderstood - and to us, being constantly dissatisfied is preferable to having your heart stamped on just once. Sometimes we need to be reminded that a little openness can be a valuable thing and that there are people out there that care enough to make an effort for us.
    That makes sense. It makes me want to ask more questions about this idealism that finds itself so dissatisfied all the time, but I'm not sure what to ask. Again, it seems like a big difference between the INTP and INFP is detached structure vs personal ethics -- both are rational frameworks, but the INTP seems to try to dampen out internal valuing ("What is true regardless of how I feel about it?") whereas the INFP seems to focus on it ("What resonates most with me personally?"). as William mentioned, this means in a practical sense that Ti logic can usually be derived to the same conclusion in independent parallel thinking, whereas Fi logic really depends on the person evaluating things and might not often mirror anyone else with an Fi perspective.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #88
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Dear INFP,

    Is it really true? Is it really, really true?

    PS:
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #89
    Senior Member SRT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    Theyre different things?
    LOL! That was the very first thing I thought when I read that.

    To whomever asked about the gift-asking thing: I don't like having to tell you what I want. Note that this doesn't really center around you, but more around me asking something for nothing in return. Its difficult to describe exactly, but I'd rather go through life not receiving gifts than "burden" those kind of wants onto someone else. I don't think this makes sense.

    Ok, well, I'm going to leave it, but I'll try and rephrase it: I'll be happy with any gift you give (excluding, of course, individual no-no gifts) even if I would have preferred something else. Me asking for it will only make me feel ashamed about the gift.

    Damn, this still isn't quite right, but I think its close enough.

  10. #90
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT View Post
    LOL! That was the very first thing I thought when I read that.

    To whomever asked about the gift-asking thing: I don't like having to tell you what I want. Note that this doesn't really center around you, but more around me asking something for nothing in return. Its difficult to describe exactly, but I'd rather go through life not receiving gifts than "burden" those kind of wants onto someone else. I don't think this makes sense.

    Ok, well, I'm going to leave it, but I'll try and rephrase it: I'll be happy with any gift you give (excluding, of course, individual no-no gifts) even if I would have preferred something else. Me asking for it will only make me feel ashamed about the gift.

    Damn, this still isn't quite right, but I think its close enough.
    Lol... I do get that and accept it as a valid feeling over the gift-giving process. Of course, to veer off a moment and explore other aspects of gift-giving.... you do realize that giving a gift that later is discovered to not have been what the person wants or needed can create shame in the gift-giver? So if you're not getting what you want, and the gift-giver is developing mistaken ideas over what you want and/or feel embarrassed for getting you something you didn't want... why not shoot for an outcome where everyone can feel good about things? (Not a criticism, just reframing the situation in case that angle has not been thought about.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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