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  1. #51
    Anew Leaf
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    Along with those lines, too, I've had issues with INFP guys not just coming out and saying what they want. One was a friendship, where I kept just waiting for my friend to say exactly what I knew he was thinking... but he always reined it in. Always. he was always "nice" even when he didn't have to be. (And then I'd get tired of waiting, and blurt it out myself, and he'd burst out laughing.) It was so funny!

    The other was with the man I dated for some time. I had the issue where he wouldn't say exactly what he wanted/meant, so I would assume that he didn't want/need anything and then he was horribly hurt that I did not figure it out but didn't say anything until stress points later in the relationship. I also had situations where he would ask me in such roundabout ways that it still wasn't clear what he actually wanted, and all I wanted him to do was be bold and bluntly, directly, say it even if there was a risk I could be hurt or angry. The communication was more important to me.
    I forgot to address this earlier because I had a time crunch.

    For me... this is how I view it. Everyone has that gooey secret mush center where their soul is. (Well, perhaps not NTJs.... ) For most types, I think they have natural defenses in place. Maybe it's a Ti or Te function that can deflect hurt away, etc. Maybe it's something else.

    For INFP's our strongest function is Fi and that is directly connected/melded with our tender little soul. You prod it, you are prodding our innermost being. We can assemble a decent defense of Ne - but most SOs will figure out pretty quickly that the Ne is merely the crunchy candy coating that is housing what is actually going on. And this, I am sure, can be very frustrating. However, when we expose our Fi... even if it's something as simple as "Hey, I would love it if you bought me a pony." There is a chance you will say no, or not now, or how about an iguana. We interpret this response as a a rejection of ourselves because our Fi = ourselves. Logically, this makes no sense. The concept of a pony does not equal how I feel about you. But to us we feel rejected therefore we are rejected.

    Our last function developed is the Ti and it is so far removed and away that it doesn't really do much of anything for us most of our lives. So we are this little marshmallow that gets thwacked around by the world.

    Now, I have realized in the past couple of years a few truths. One is, No I really am not equipped to deal with this world the way that it is. And Two, I can't let that be an excuse. If I am weak and having an issue with something, I need to figure out a creative solution to this problem instead of running from it. I have had to consciously work on my Fi and Ti. I've talked to a couple of other NFs about this in private but I will just toss this out here. I've been using this book, The Feeling Good Handbook, to give myself tools in how to deal with issues. The book cover is possibly the most over the top cover ever, but it actually works.

    Case in point - my NF style meltdown last night. A few years ago, I would have sobbed all night, yelled sarcasticly at my dad, and felt like absolute crap for weeks afterward. I still had a bit of a meltdown - but I was able to express some of it to my dad, a lot on this forum, and the rest to my friends today. I feel better, in control, and not angry anymore or super upset. I am still upset, but it isn't controlling me or my day, etc. I have plans to see my Dad on Friday so that we can talk about this. I have already formulated much of what I want to say to him, and I know that we will be able to get through this rough patch and move on.

    For me this is huge.

    Too long: didn't read?

    INFP's = bunny rabbit. Our only natural defense that God gave us is the ability to run away.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I actually follow a lot of that (it parallels my experience with TiNe), except that I consider Ti to be the cold, unyielding, dangerous function. Ti cannot be negotiated with, it has no interest in compromise. Its only choice is to speak or not speak, but it cannot change the words that come out of its mouth just to cushion a blow. It can only speak what it sees to be true. Otherwise it would be like saying 2+5 = 9, and it would rather not compromise itself by speaking if told it cannot say the truth.
    I use Ne naturally to cushion Ti truth ... expressing it more flexible ways, as pokes, jabs, jests, insinuations, allusions, etc. Ne is the explorer that asks "what if?" and "why not?" and then relays the info back to Ti.


    What, do you mean judgmental, self-controlled, intense, rigid, or what exactly?


    Lol. Sounds like the INFJ had her integrity challenged and did not like that. ENFJ was acting fully within her rights as the man's wife to challenge a situation that she thought was inappropriate -- that's what EFJ does. (An ESFJ would likely do the same thing.) IFJ might be more inclined to make sure she was "doing the right thing" and wanting to key off information, and then feeling blindsided/misjudged when she was just doing her job, in her opinion. IFJs seem to brood when misjudged, they hold themselves to high standards but might not articulate what the standard is as well as EFJ.

    Anyway, tangent from INFP, so...!
    Bolded 1: Yes, we use our Ne in the same way but for different purposes. You use it to soften the Ti, and we use it to harden our Fi.

    Bolded 2: I find INFJs to be a bit more controlling and rigid on things. I think that in my relationships with them I feel like we are so similar, yay! And then the smaller differences creep in and it's where the heck did this come from? This could be a bit of a sampling error as well since most of them I knew when we were much younger - like 18-23ish.... but I had 2 of them send me emails explaining how mad they were at me, and what I did wrong... when I had no clue. However, it doesn't mean that if I encounter a future INFJ that I will assume that about them.

    INFJ/ENFJ Issues: Actually the problem ended up being that the INFJ LIKED the ENFJs husband and was hitting on him. And then pretended she wasnt when confronted. (It was a bit obvious.... and the husband was very uncomfortable by her attentions). Too much drama llama. This was the second time she had been inappropriate towards a husband in the group. She also was the one who kept faking suicide attempts - pretty much every 4 months, like clockwork, we would be called from the hospital because she ate 2 pills and called 911. I really hope she got the counselling she needed, but I just couldn't deal with it anymore.

  2. #52
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Yeah, I relate to this quite a bit. I think Ti and Fi are similar in some regards - they are both introverted functions that are quite comfortable in remaining silent - they don't "have to" speak out. But, they are both very intense and there's a LOT going on under the surface in regards to how strongly they think/feel about an issue. For instance, when people say "Yeah, 2+5=9!" Ti gets kind of pissy. Cuz it's not true. It's an outright lie. Ti has sort of "been violated". Similar with Fi, I believe - when something dear to them has been "violated", when that line has been crossed, Fi isn't a happy camper.
    Exactly. Plus, I find it much easier to just let things roll instead of making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'd rather deal with what I can control - myself and my own reactions - then adding in someone else to the mix. I don't necessarily need their input in on my feelings and thoughts.

    I think maybe an analogy for you INTPs could be the math example. You know 7+2 = 9 but someone else REALLY wants to share that moment with you, or contribute their thoughts on the matter. But you know what the answer is, you don't need outside help, and more likely than not that person is going to want to explain why 4+5 is a superior method to getting to 9.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah, that's how I see it, and I have the same intution about Fi as well (and same response to Ti matters... I can still detach from it for awhile and/or control my response, but typically I have to pull back and leave proximity rather than listen to what I consider to be untruth be continually uttered... unless of course we have all agreed ahead of time that all opinions being uttered are self-expressions rather than rational statements. You can tell I'm tired and/or exasperated when I just start letting challenges to mistruths like that slip out my mouth.)

    So I was guessing Fi finds it equally as difficult to hold its tongue when someone continues to say things that are ethically divergent from its rational structure.
    You ever see an ENFP let loose? Of course you have.

    That's us under the surface. When we are mad, we are pissed, and angry and mentally saying all sorts of horrible things. However, for me at least, a part of me wants to make them feel what I am feeling - hurt and angry.... But I can't allow myself to be the one weilding the verbal sword... so I keep it inside.

    However, if I am pushed and prodded enough then I will unleash it all, and I will be aiming to take whoemver it is out of commission. I am very good with empathy, which is awesome when a friend needs my shoulder to cry on. However, I can use these powers for evil and figure out what it is that will hurt you the most. And unfortunately I have been trained by enough NTs to go for the jugular if I am pushed to it.

    And if I do unleash these negative emotions the person who ends up paying the most IS ME. Because odds are, whomever I just blew up at, is not an INFP too... and they will marshal their defenses at some point and move on. Whereas I can be haunted by something horrible I said... for years!

    Even now. After my mom died, I remembered when I was like 13 and had some huge fight with her and I yelled, I wish you were dead!!! And stomped off to listen to 9" nails or something. I told my dad about this a few months ago - crying about it - and he's like what? Why would you even remember that? It's in the past, etc. But for me, it's stuck like a raisin in the pudding of my Fi-ness.

    So in conclusion, if I don't show my Fi - it might be a good thing.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Hmmm, that's about as good an explanation as I've heard as to why it gets "tucked away". Everyone beats on it with a pole growing up and so you have to put it in your pocket so nobody will see it. I have an ENFP friend who said she's so tired of telling people her feelings and people responding with, "You just have to pull up your bootstraps and be tough." S

    o now, with her, I don't say things like that to her; instead, I try to comfort her, but I never know if I'm doing a good job of it. It just goes unspoken. Maybe she feels comforted by my words, maybe she doesn't. I'll never know because she never speaks it. It just remains inside. So, for others (non-Fi'ers), it becomes a matter of "I'm going to just try my best to comfort the Fi'er and hope that it works, cuz I have no way of measuring/seeing the effectiveness of my words/hugs/bunnies/sports cars."
    Ugh. Yeah people seem to think that emotional bootstraps are purchasable from EMO-MART. When if they were purchasable there, we couldn't find them because either we would be chasing butterflies in the butterfly section, or forget what we are looking for at the store, or go, "EW! these boots are in puce! Im not wearing THAT."

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    Sooo IF you guys (INFPs) were to rule the world, would you kill off your INTPs cousins?? We aren't found of teh gas chambers!!




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    My first order of business as Empress is to hand out ponies to everyone.

    After that it's fingerpaint time.

    I really can't plan much further than that sorry.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Too long: didn't read?
    I read it. I just don't have a point of reference for it, so I am still mulling over it.

    INFP's = bunny rabbit. Our only natural defense that God gave us is the ability to run away.
    I do understand cute bunnies. Even if I would rather eat a chocolate one.

    Bolded 2: I find INFJs to be a bit more controlling and rigid on things. I think that in my relationships with them I feel like we are so similar, yay! And then the smaller differences creep in and it's where the heck did this come from? This could be a bit of a sampling error as well since most of them I knew when we were much younger - like 18-23ish.... but I had 2 of them send me emails explaining how mad they were at me, and what I did wrong... when I had no clue. However, it doesn't mean that if I encounter a future INFJ that I will assume that about them.
    INFJs are funny. The ones who use Ti well tend to be very good at articulating their thoughts openly, although even the personal stuff still has a sense of detachment about it that is very ITP in flavor. Those who don't seem to "logic" through their Ni though, express their Ni via Fe communication style, which to me is harder to read because I keep trying to "get under it" and figure out they "really intuit/feel" about things. The NiTi approach is more direct, even if detached -- they talk about their feelings as if things, even if they also feel their feelings. I like to be able to grapple with ideas and feelings directly in speech, rather than interpretation them through Fe-typical actions and vocabulary.

    INFJ/ENFJ Issues: Actually the problem ended up being that the INFJ LIKED the ENFJs husband and was hitting on him. And then pretended she wasnt when confronted. (It was a bit obvious.... and the husband was very uncomfortable by her attentions). Too much drama llama. This was the second time she had been inappropriate towards a husband in the group. She also was the one who kept faking suicide attempts - pretty much every 4 months, like clockwork, we would be called from the hospital because she ate 2 pills and called 911. I really hope she got the counselling she needed, but I just couldn't deal with it anymore.
    Thank you.

    I actually intuited the first part but didn't want to be rude and/or wrong by saying it... and now you confirmed that one.

    The second part... wow. Yes, that is just an attention-getter, not a "serious" attempt, although she definitely needed help. It's hard to know what to do with people like that because you would want to help a friend, yet the friend is taking advantage of the relationship to get more attention in improper ways, and so to affirm them for doing such things is to reinforce bad behavior. She needed to learn better strategies to receive the personal affirmation she desired.

    Interestingly, the INFJs with issues who I personally know had the opposite problem -- they tended to just pull themselves back, withdraw, fester in upon themselves and lock everyone else out tight, whether that was because of Fe strength (not wanting to be a burden on others) or embarrassment (being ashamed of having such problems) or wanting to remain independent and not have someone else interfere. it was very hard to get them to open up and discuss what they were struggling with, even if they were sensitive to other's struggles.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #57
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think the most likely experience I can relate to is that, if I'm in a situation where I feel mistruth is being uttered so that I've had to finally open my mouth, to START to let some of it out inevitably means I have to let ALL of it come out (so that I can properly express why my view differs in a way that is coherent), and at that point I'm now committed to a conversation where I know that at least one person will probably argue with me. And I don't really like to invest in arguments, I like to invest in dialogues. I wouldn't have been suppressing in the first place if I thought the other viewpoint could handle an actual challenge.

    So now I'm annoyed because I feel trapped in a pointless discussion, and since it's become personal, there's emotions sparking about.

    Also, I rarely fight, but I have the mindset of minimizing risk/engagement whenever I do fight... AKA "take them down hard and fast." I don't see the point in a prolonged conflict. This amounts to using either (1) The Deluge, where I hit them with an entire detailed lengthy argument, solidified, with no apparent vulnerability for them to find a chink in, and effectively drowning them under its massiveness or (2) The Kill Shot -- one nicely placed, straight to the core point that shatters their entire case.

    (One of my favorite examples of #2 is from American Beauty, where Ricky has been remaining silent to Angela's boorish, ongoing manipulation/abuse of his girlfriend Jane, and finally he is fed up. When Angela tells Jane in a final argument that "well, at least I'm not ugly [like you]," Ricky finally commits and says, "Yes, you are. And you're boring. And you're totally ordinary. And you know it." He had figured her out long ago but just didn't want to go there, and now he just got fed up to constantly listen to her mistruths.)

    Anyway, it is an ugly business, and afterward I actually feel bad because I felt like I lost control and might have hurt someone needlessly, and also burned a few bridges along the way. Because I finally expressed openly what I was thinking the whole time.

    Is that anything similar to what you are describing?


    Shhhh! Don't give them ideas!
    Yes, yes, yes. Sometimes I want to tell people exactly what I am thinking or feeling about them... but I do have to weigh the risks involved. Do I want to invite a pointless war of attrition? Do I want to take them down with my knowledge of them? Not really. From where I am sitting this kind of interchange will be at best for me a Pyrric Victory, and that is in itself pointless.

    If I can snap back and make someone hurt, but I hurt myself in the process, what is the point. (Stupid empathy.)

    Also, I have always loved American Beauty, and especially that part. I have been driven to telling people this on a few occasions, and I am not proud of what I said, but sometimes it does need to be said.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    Sooo IF you guys (INFPs) were to rule the world, would you kill off your INTPs cousins?? We aren't found of teh gas chambers!!




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  9. #59
    Anew Leaf
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    P.S. The INFPs demands are:

    *Moar Pictchurz of Pandaz, bunnahs, kittahs, etc.
    *Moar puddingz

    That is all.

  10. #60
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    And to further the idea that this thread is totally all about me. (ugh) I will relate this funny INFP conversation from earlier today via texts between me and my best friend (INFP).

    INFP: yay! I am going out with my dad for lunch today!
    ME: awesome! have a great time
    INFP: except we are going for indian food.
    ME: why sad face? you love indian food.
    INFP: yeah but I REALLY wanted to go get some japanese food, but he picked the indian restaurant out of the 3 ideas I gave him.

    I had to chuckle because I totally see why she did what she did, but I also see how annoying we are when we do this. I know for a fact that if she had said, gee Dad I would love Japanese food! He would cheerfully agree and go there instead.

    I think we should ship ourselves one way to the planet Saturn for a life of hugs and ponies and not much else.

    And now my Fi pond is 100% empty and I need to go restock it.

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