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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    But, they are both very intense and there's a LOT going on under the surface in regards to how strongly they think/feel about an issue. For instance, when people say "Yeah, 2+5=9!" Ti gets kind of pissy. Cuz it's not true. It's an outright lie. Ti has sort of "been violated". Similar with Fi, I believe - when something dear to them has been "violated", when that line has been crossed, Fi isn't a happy camper.
    Yeah, that's how I see it, and I have the same intution about Fi as well (and same response to Ti matters... I can still detach from it for awhile and/or control my response, but typically I have to pull back and leave proximity rather than listen to what I consider to be untruth be continually uttered... unless of course we have all agreed ahead of time that all opinions being uttered are self-expressions rather than rational statements. You can tell I'm tired and/or exasperated when I just start letting challenges to mistruths like that slip out my mouth.)

    So I was guessing Fi finds it equally as difficult to hold its tongue when someone continues to say things that are ethically divergent from its rational structure.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    For last night I couldn't speak what I was feeling because it was too much. And speaking a little bit about it is like letting a crack form in a dam... It all has to come out right then and there. And I hate being out of control feeling as if I am some kind of raving lunatic. For one, I know that if I get questioned I won't be able to explain myself, and two, I am quite frankly afraid I am going to say something horrible and unforgivable.
    Crack in a dam is a good metaphor for this. There is the feeling of a possibility of an explosion that I don't think will ever completely go away. I don't know how other types feel this, or do they? But it's like whenever there is an intense enough argument the fear of a volcanic eruption creeps up from the back of my mind. And I know that things would never be the same if I went into demolition mode.

  3. #43
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    To INTPness: (on my iPad so quoting large walls of text kinda suck)

    First, you are lucky VERY lucky that Jennifer thoughtfully provided you with some much needed sacrificial photos.

    Second, here I go and please be nice. I will do mah best and hopefully make sense.

    Several reasons. Have you ever just been super overwhelmed by an emotion or two or the hundred? Even if it only lasts for a few minutes... If you have then think of having that feeling where you can't control it, you can't contain it, and you have no Ti to fall back to to make the emotional animal behave.

    Growing up, for myself, I think I was very Fi a lot. It caused me an enormous amount of pain to show my little feelings on my sleeve. At school I got teased because I was smart. I cried. I got laughed at. I got teased for being good at art. I cried. I got laughed at. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the cause and effects here... So what option did I have? I shut it down, became quiet, and tried not to make any waves. At home when I told my dad what happened he gave me the "life isn't fair speech.". To a little INFP this is like being told Santa, the easter bunny, and the oort cloud don't exist. All in one moment.

    In my teenage years we lived in Singapore and that helped give me a fresh start and I started using my Ne more (not that this was conscious at all) and I discovered that with Ne I was funny, fun, and people liked me. Who knew?!

    Onward to college I had my first actual boyfriend with an INTJ. I was so excited and emotional and yay! Too much so, so that he decided it was not what he wanted. And he broke up with me on my birthday and spent 3 hours telling me what a horrible person I was and how interesting he found my pain. So another lesson learned: keep the Fi at bay when in a relationship because it sucks when you don't.

    Luckily my next few relationships were much better and I did learn how to let the guy know what I was feeling without making it into too much of a big deal.

    With my dad, I have been able to show my Fi before because my mom was there to help guide him. Without her he is adrift with zero knowledge of how to speak to me and so he says so many things that hurt me because I am not prepared for it. We are both kind of struggling to redefine the relationship now that is a line instead of a triangle.

    Does any of this make sense?

    For last night I couldn't speak what I was feeling because it was too much. And speaking a little bit about it is like letting a crack form in a dam... It all has to come out right then and there. And I hate being out of control feeling as if I am some kind of raving lunatic. For one, I know that if I get questioned I won't be able to explain myself, and two, I am quite frankly afraid I am going to say something horrible and unforgivable. I don't want that! So for me, I find it easier to have my emo meltdown alone if needed... Some time to cool down and be analytical again, so that I can then come to someone and say... Look, you really hurt my feelings because of x y z. And we can go from there.

    Gifts and not asking.... Guilty as charged.

    I think its because I love surprises.... And i love feeling like someone really gets me. Part of this is because my mom spoiled me with her ENFPity with an incredible knack of gift giving. Everyone always felt soo special with her gifts. it's hard to top that with a, I asked and I got, kind of thing.

    If it's a small gift then I won't have a problem with asking. If it's something like a car, no way I would ask. It makes me look greedy and materialistic and I should buy that for myself to be independent. (any large ticket item)

    And a tiny part of it is in love surprises because they come out of the blue (duh) and don't require me to be anxious or anticipating it. (I also have a secret horror of getting a gift I hate and not being able to hide it.)

    Ok, god that was a ramble. I hope I make sense. If you question something go ahead ^_^. I put my Fi away so it's ok.
    Hmmm, that's about as good an explanation as I've heard as to why it gets "tucked away". Everyone beats on it with a pole growing up and so you have to put it in your pocket so nobody will see it. I have an ENFP friend who said she's so tired of telling people her feelings and people responding with, "You just have to pull up your bootstraps and be tough."

    So now, with her, I don't say things like that to her; instead, I try to comfort her, but I never know if I'm doing a good job of it. It just goes unspoken. Maybe she feels comforted by my words, maybe she doesn't. I'll never know because she never speaks it. It just remains inside. So, for others (non-Fi'ers), it becomes a matter of "I'm going to just try my best to comfort the Fi'er and hope that it works, cuz I have no way of measuring/seeing the effectiveness of my words/hugs/bunnies/sports cars."
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    So, for others, it becomes a matter of "I'm going to just try my best to comfort the Fi'er and hope that it works, cuz I have no way of measuring/seeing the effectiveness of my words/hugs/bunnies/sports cars."
    Well, if you feel like you have to comfort, then that's what you have to do. If you don't want to, that's ok too. Usually we are able to see authenticity so, whatever you feel like doing is probably ok. Of course one thing with comments like "tough up" is that we are individualistic and don't like the idea that it is us who need to conform to the world that is to a large extent in disagreement with out values.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Crack in a dam is a good metaphor for this. There is the feeling of a possibility of an explosion that I don't think will ever completely go away. I don't know how other types feel this, or do they? But it's like whenever there is an intense enough argument the fear of a volcanic eruption creeps up from the back of my mind. And I know that things would never be the same if I went into demolition mode.
    Interesting. So, with my ISFP ex, we broke up (and she was hurt, but didn't express it, I just knew) and then many months later we were talking and I kept saying, "If there's something you want to discuss, let's just talk about it. Just put it out there." And she'd sort of avoid the question, but I could still tell there was something on her mind. I would say it again, "I can't read your mind, but I'm here to talk if you'd like." We kept going around in circles like that and finally she started crying and said, "Every time you say that it's like you're taking a little hammer and chipping away at the rock. You're chipping away and chipping away and if that rock finally breaks, there's a LOT of stuff inside that rock that will come out."

    Is this kind of what you're describing somewhat? About the crack in the dam?

    I guess what's hard for non-Fi'ers to understand is why does ALL THAT STUFF get hidden so deep inside the rock? Let that stuff come to the surface. But, I think Saturned already touched on that - people beat it with a pole all your life, so you learn to put it in your pocket and wait until you get home to sift through it.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  6. #46

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    Sooo IF you guys (INFPs) were to rule the world, would you kill off your INTPs cousins?? We aren't found of teh gas chambers!!




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    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    (patiently) ask an INFP!!1
    and nicely nicely nicely

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Interesting. So, with my ISFP ex, we broke up (and she was hurt, but didn't express it, I just knew) and then many months later we were talking and I kept saying, "If there's something you want to discuss, let's just talk about it. Just put it out there." And she'd sort of avoid the question, but I could still tell there was something on her mind. I would say it again, "I can't read your mind, but I'm here to talk if you'd like." We kept going around in circles like that and finally she started crying and said, "Every time you say that it's like you're taking a little hammer and chipping away at the rock. You're chipping away and chipping away and if that rock finally breaks, there's a LOT of stuff inside that rock that will come out."

    Is this kind of what you're describing somewhat? About the crack in the dam?

    I guess what's hard for non-Fi'ers to understand is why does ALL THAT STUFF get hidden so deep inside the rock? Let that stuff come to the surface. But, I think Saturned already touched on that - people beat it with a pole all your life, so you learn to put it in your pocket and wait until you get home to sift through it.
    There has been a couple of excellent threads about this in the past, I might see if I find them. See, we are not all that fluffy when we go berserk. And it is not too clear where the line goes between "mad" and "berserk", so we are afraid of letting go of control. Personally, the last time I went there was when I was twelve. It was such a surgical, cold, manipulative move that it effects the victim even today. And I was a kid back then, with a limited knowledge of psychology. I don't think I want to see what I am capable of today.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Crack in a dam is a good metaphor for this. There is the feeling of a possibility of an explosion that I don't think will ever completely go away. I don't know how other types feel this, or do they? But it's like whenever there is an intense enough argument the fear of a volcanic eruption creeps up from the back of my mind. And I know that things would never be the same if I went into demolition mode.
    I think the most likely experience I can relate to is that, if I'm in a situation where I feel mistruth is being uttered so that I've had to finally open my mouth, to START to let some of it out inevitably means I have to let ALL of it come out (so that I can properly express why my view differs in a way that is coherent), and at that point I'm now committed to a conversation where I know that at least one person will probably argue with me. And I don't really like to invest in arguments, I like to invest in dialogues. I wouldn't have been suppressing in the first place if I thought the other viewpoint could handle an actual challenge.

    So now I'm annoyed because I feel trapped in a pointless discussion, and since it's become personal, there's emotions sparking about.

    Also, I rarely fight, but I have the mindset of minimizing risk/engagement whenever I do fight... AKA "take them down hard and fast." I don't see the point in a prolonged conflict. This amounts to using either (1) The Deluge, where I hit them with an entire detailed lengthy argument, solidified, with no apparent vulnerability for them to find a chink in, and effectively drowning them under its massiveness or (2) The Kill Shot -- one nicely placed, straight to the core point that shatters their entire case.

    (One of my favorite examples of #2 is from American Beauty, where Ricky has been remaining silent to Angela's boorish, ongoing manipulation/abuse of his girlfriend Jane, and finally he is fed up. When Angela tells Jane in a final argument that "well, at least I'm not ugly [like you]," Ricky finally commits and says, "Yes, you are. And you're boring. And you're totally ordinary. And you know it." He had figured her out long ago but just didn't want to go there, and now he just got fed up to constantly listen to her mistruths.)

    Anyway, it is an ugly business, and afterward I actually feel bad because I felt like I lost control and might have hurt someone needlessly, and also burned a few bridges along the way. Because I finally expressed openly what I was thinking the whole time.

    Is that anything similar to what you are describing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    Sooo IF you guys (INFPs) were to rule the world, would you kill off your INTPs cousins?? We aren't found of teh gas chambers!!
    Shhhh! Don't give them ideas!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Also, I rarely fight, but I have the mindset of minimizing risk/engagement whenever I do fight... AKA "take them down hard and fast." I don't see the point in a prolonged conflict. This amounts to using either (1) The Deluge, where I hit them with an entire detailed lengthy argument, solidified, with no apparent vulnerability for them to find a chink in, and effectively drowning them under its massiveness or (2) The Kill Shot -- one nicely placed, straight to the core point that shatters their entire case.

    (One of my favorite examples of #2 is from American Beauty, where Ricky has been remaining silent to Angela's boorish, ongoing manipulation/abuse of his girlfriend Jane, and finally he is fed up. When Angela tells Jane in a final argument that "well, at least I'm not ugly [like you]," Ricky finally commits and says, "Yes, you are. And you're boring. And you're totally ordinary. And you know it." He had figured her out long ago but just didn't want to go there, and now he just got fed up to constantly listen to her mistruths.)
    Yes. That's exactly what I meant.

    I know I am aware of people's weak spots. I just choose to not point them out because I don't want people getting hurt. But if they push me enough to make me mad enough to loose perspective, then I can't promise it will be nice. And I'm afraid that unlike you, I don't shoot down the argument at that point, I will go after the person. And it isn't like I want to do this. This is some sort of self-protection, and I know it is overreaction, but that doesn't matter anymore. So, the other person will be hurt, the relationship will never recover, and so on...

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