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  1. #441
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesthete View Post
    How do I explain to an INFP that they've misunderstood my intentions?
    Try this, first: "I think you may have misunderstood my intentions." Or, perhaps to make him a bit less defensive, "I think I may not have been very clear about my intentions."

    If that doesn't work, things will be substantially trickier.

    Quote Originally Posted by girlinthePNW View Post
    How do I nudge my INFP man in a way in the best way? I am being very patient in our growing relationship but always am looking for new ways to bond/grow. Sharing my vulnerabilities? Cuddling? Reaching out more?
    I saw your other thread, and that you want him to lead more. INFPs can be capable of leading, but we rarely fight for that position.

    So first, realize he won't become a great planner and initiator overnight. It has to happen in smaller degrees. Explain what you want, and then reward his progress towards that. Ideally, sprinkle in one of his primary love languages, but don't overdo it. The clear communication of what you want plus the positive reinforcement will (hopefully) encourage him, and give him the confidence, to continue on.

    Do some reading on the 5 love languages if you don't know what they are. That's useful and interesting regardless, and can make for a good conversation with him. I'm guessing you two have different primary languages.

  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Do you ever get scared or back away when you someone has told you that they care about you?
    It depends.

    I have to feel like the person knows me well enough to be aware of my negative traits and doesn't mind them. I don't trust feelings without some reality. (*promptly loses NF card*)

    So if someone has taken the time to get to know me, then I would welcome such affection. If it's out of the blue and I think all the person is seeing is my candy coated outer shell, then I will most likely feel disappointed. Also, a bit like what @Southern Kross said about the intensity. There has to be a proper correlation between intensity of expression and sufficient time to be known. Too much, too soon, can put pressure on the Fi-er that they have to respond a certain way, which will turn our lot into balky emotional mules.

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Do you ever get scared or back away when you someone has told you that they care about you?
    Only if I don't care the same way about them because then I have to worry about how to let them down gently.

  4. #444
    Senior Member Eckhart's Avatar
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    @nicothyun: I know this situation is probably not very nice for you, but I must admit your post made me a smile a little bit Actually if he is interested into you it is not unlikely that this guy is feeling very similarily as you do yourself! At least it reminds me a lot of myself several years ago.

    Now, the easiest way to find out how you want to behave around him might be actually to think how you would prefer he could behave around you. Maybe I am wrong, probably it is also easier said than done (I am not sure I know myself what I want), but it might help.

    I might tell about my own experience and how it turned out, but I am not sure it will help

  5. #445
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicothyun View Post
    I am having a hard time trying to initiate a conversation with an INFP guy because I get horribly scared and nervous when I am near him; and then I totally turn speechless. And I don't know, I feel like he is interested in me because even though we don't really know each other but he looks at me when he thinks I am not looking and even though he is pretty subtle but his friend isn't really subtle. And then whenever I catches him looking, he turns away immediately.
    Classic sign of (INFP) shyness. Sounds like you gotta shot so far!

    Why don't you try talking about whatever random, interesting thing that you happen to be reading about at the moment? One perk with us INFPs is that we usually find the things INTPs learn and think about to be interesting. Either the conversation will click, which will help you relax, or he'll prove himself an idiot and your crush will die. Win - win!

  6. #446
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Hey all... I'm wondering why some INFPs are so obsessed with metrics and what is the kindest way to explain that it might be a waste of time?

    I worked with an INFP who brought me on to a project in order to breathe life into it and "innovate". I spent so much of my time analyzing data that I ended up just walking away. I felt like he wanted this thing to go a certain way and hired me to prove to himself that he was open to change, when he really wasn't. So ok, it was a one off thing and I moved on.

    But now my INTP hubby is facing a very similar situation. He was hired on to be in charge of a particular project. But day after day, he is forced to waste time on reports analyzing the data in different ways. So for months, the project has been losing so much money that the INFP basically said he was closing shop on it at the end of the year. Also, the INFP is literally obsessed with one type of medium - let's say, for instance, Facebook. So there are just dozens of books and materials in the office about how to use Facebook to further the project. He's been using this "Facebook app" for a year with no positive results. But refuses to hear anything about any other social media site, or any other type of venue.

    Ok, since the INFP basically walked away from micro-managing the project, my hubby now had all this freedom to do actual work on it. So for a few weeks, he hunkered down and really brought this project to life. When he decided he was at a point where he should bring it to the boss's attention, he was met with "Wow, that's great! Now let's put together a detailed report with a 5 step monthly plan, using Facebook, that indicates..."

    Seriously, my hubby really likes this guy and respects him and thinks the project is actually very good. And because he's an INTP, he's way less volatile than I am, so he wants to work it out with this guy. How can he possibly get through to him, in a kind and respectful way?

  7. #447
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Hey all... I'm wondering why some INFPs are so obsessed with metrics and what is the kindest way to explain that it might be a waste of time?
    I know this will come as a huge surprise, but INFPs aren't always great at being in tune with reality. What's so great about metrics is that they provide hard, concrete data that's wonderfully open to intuitive Fi interpretation. Plus, analyzing metrics is a great way to over-think something, and feel like we're being productive while we avoid taking any action. They may also be an over-compensation mechanism, making their usefulness more emotional than logical.

    Convincing him that metrics are a waste of time won't be particularly easy or possible, and is probably a waste of your time. It's far better to argue that everything has its place, including metrics, but there are many things metrics can't do very well. Metrics are a tool for us to call upon to help in decision making, and what he's doing is becoming a tool for the metrics.

    I worked with an INFP who brought me on to a project in order to breathe life into it and "innovate". I spent so much of my time analyzing data that I ended up just walking away. I felt like he wanted this thing to go a certain way and hired me to prove to himself that he was open to change, when he really wasn't. So ok, it was a one off thing and I moved on.
    My suspicion is that he was hoping you'd view the data in a clever-but-not-all-too-different way. That's a complete waste of what you brought to the table... I'd expect more from my fellow INFP brethren.

    But now my INTP hubby is facing a very similar situation. He was hired on to be in charge of a particular project. But day after day, he is forced to waste time on reports analyzing the data in different ways. So for months, the project has been losing so much money that the INFP basically said he was closing shop on it at the end of the year. Also, the INFP is literally obsessed with one type of medium - let's say, for instance, Facebook. So there are just dozens of books and materials in the office about how to use Facebook to further the project. He's been using this "Facebook app" for a year with no positive results. But refuses to hear anything about any other social media site, or any other type of venue.

    Ok, since the INFP basically walked away from micro-managing the project, my hubby now had all this freedom to do actual work on it. So for a few weeks, he hunkered down and really brought this project to life. When he decided he was at a point where he should bring it to the boss's attention, he was met with "Wow, that's great! Now let's put together a detailed report with a 5 step monthly plan, using Facebook, that indicates..."

    Seriously, my hubby really likes this guy and respects him and thinks the project is actually very good. And because he's an INTP, he's way less volatile than I am, so he wants to work it out with this guy. How can he possibly get through to him, in a kind and respectful way?
    I'd love to say something like, "Since this is business, if you can present a logical argument as to how Facebook and the metrics are leading him astray, he'd understand and be willing to try something new." However, we'd probably die from laughter afterward, so I won't say that. There's almost certainly an emotional component to this, and you'll make your greatest progress when you can work with him to develop a solution that compensates for that.

    My first point may or may not be relevant, but it could be a huge factor. Simply put, when the stakes are high, xNTP thinking can make me uncomfortable. I think this is because the NTP line of thinking is not readily obvious to me, so it's not clear just how much thought may have gone into a course of action or even why that course of action is being decided. Now, thanks to MBTI I can understand the differences and seek clarification, after which all is usually good, but I can see it being an issue with an INFP that isn't versed in MBTI or hearing people out.

    Likewise, there's probably a solid line of thinking on his end behind the reliance of Facebook (for example) and metrics. There very well may be a shortcoming or flaw in his thinking, but it's likely the same line of thinking that got him to where he is now. For better and worse.

    My first suggestion is that your husband take some time to understand that thinking. What is he expecting the metrics to tell him? What is he really looking for? Why is he putting all of his eggs in the Facebook basket over other social media sites? What is it that he thinks Facebook will provide that he can't (as easily) get anywhere else? The answers to those questions will clue him in on what the INFP is looking for. Then, your hubby will be in a better position to frame his ideas in a way that incorporates those needs.

    It's unlikely the INFP will be able to let go of metrics entirely. But maybe one or two specific metrics that serve as signs of progress (or lack of it) will suffice. Likewise, maybe if the boss thinks that Facebook is the best because it has the most users, which amounts to an assumption that more users = more customers. But if you can show him another option that is likely to have a higher percentage of customers, or a significantly lower cost to get someone to on the site to use their product, he should at least listen.

  8. #448
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Thanks doggie. Your answers are helpful, as usual. It's interesting to see how the other half lives, hahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I know this will come as a huge surprise, but INFPs aren't always great at being in tune with reality. What's so great about metrics is that they provide hard, concrete data that's wonderfully open to intuitive Fi interpretation. Plus, analyzing metrics is a great way to over-think something, and feel like we're being productive while we avoid taking any action. They may also be an over-compensation mechanism, making their usefulness more emotional than logical.

    Convincing him that metrics are a waste of time won't be particularly easy or possible, and is probably a waste of your time. It's far better to argue that everything has its place, including metrics, but there are many things metrics can't do very well. Metrics are a tool for us to call upon to help in decision making, and what he's doing is becoming a tool for the metrics.
    So, there's no way to say "look how much work I got done when you weren't up my ass about another god forsaken useless report"? Bummer!
    Wouldn't he want to know that the reason he is shutting down the project is because he is forcing his staff to be unproductive? I would certainly want to know, if it were me. I'm not saying that reporting doesn't have a place, just that it can't be the only thing. There has to be people interested in the project, there has to be content associated with the project. If we spend all our time getting users and there is nothing for the users to use, isn't it all pointless?


    My suspicion is that he was hoping you'd view the data in a clever-but-not-all-too-different way. That's a complete waste of what you brought to the table... I'd expect more from my fellow INFP brethren.
    I think I was too radical and it scared him shitless, lol. He tried to give me all these self-help books about, well, I don't even know since I didn't bother to look at them.

    There's almost certainly an emotional component to this, and you'll make your greatest progress when you can work with him to develop a solution that compensates for that.
    I also suspect that to be the case.

    My first point may or may not be relevant, but it could be a huge factor. Simply put, when the stakes are high, xNTP thinking can make me uncomfortable. I think this is because the NTP line of thinking is not readily obvious to me, so it's not clear just how much thought may have gone into a course of action or even why that course of action is being decided. Now, thanks to MBTI I can understand the differences and seek clarification, after which all is usually good, but I can see it being an issue with an INFP that isn't versed in MBTI or hearing people out.
    My INTP wrote up an extremely long and excruciatingly detailed report stating what needs to be done to bring this project into the new year, and why. The INFP responded well to it and thought it was brilliant and told him "that's great for sometime in the future, but for now, let's just focus on [thing that has lost him money consistently for the past year].

    I think he's scared of change. He would rather let the project die knowing that he followed the instructions by the book, than risk having it fail because he went out on a limb - that way, he is not the reason for the failure. But, of course, this is just my opinion - I could just be full of shit. Who knows.

    My first suggestion is that your husband take some time to understand that thinking. What is he expecting the metrics to tell him? What is he really looking for? Why is he putting all of his eggs in the Facebook basket over other social media sites? What is it that he thinks Facebook will provide that he can't (as easily) get anywhere else? The answers to those questions will clue him in on what the INFP is looking for. Then, your hubby will be in a better position to frame his ideas in a way that incorporates those needs.
    Good idea. I will definitely suggest that. Thank you.

    It's unlikely the INFP will be able to let go of metrics entirely. But maybe one or two specific metrics that serve as signs of progress (or lack of it) will suffice. Likewise, maybe if the boss thinks that Facebook is the best because it has the most users, which amounts to an assumption that more users = more customers. But if you can show him another option that is likely to have a higher percentage of customers, or a significantly lower cost to get someone to on the site to use their product, he should at least listen.
    I think my INTP has shown him all he can show him in these past few weeks and it's falling on deaf ears. It's sad, but it's the way it is... I would write it off as a lost cause and move on, but I suspect the hubby will just keep on doing exactly what the INFP asks and allow the project to die slowly. I can't imagine him really being the type to kick up dirt. Oh well.

  9. #449
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    It is my opinion that the biggest obstacle isn't convincing him to let your husband continue the good work on the project, but rather, getting him to actually make an active, conscious decision one way or the other. It sounds like the INFP is trying to avoid making a decision, and just let the project die through information bias (a delay tactic) and creativity starvation.

    Anyways, everything I say below is just a variation of that theme...

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    So, there's no way to say "look how much work I got done when you weren't up my ass about another god forsaken useless report"? Bummer!
    Heh. The thing is, the INFP doesn't feel that they are useless. I guess if it were me, I would try saying something like "I understand how important many of the reports are to the business and the company, but I must admit, I'm struggling to understand what role they play in this Facebook app. Can you help me understand what you are looking for from these reports?"

    Because the boss finds value in those reports. On the other side of the coin, you have the value that comes from the life that your husband is breathing into the project. But I don't think his boss understands that value yet. Nor do you guys understand the value the INFP finds in the reports.

    Wouldn't he want to know that the reason he is shutting down the project is because he is forcing his staff to be unproductive? I would certainly want to know, if it were me. I'm not saying that reporting doesn't have a place, just that it can't be the only thing. There has to be people interested in the project, there has to be content associated with the project. If we spend all our time getting users and there is nothing for the users to use, isn't it all pointless?
    A successful product that simply doesn't get lucky requires: 1. a quality product that fulfills a need/desire and 2. an ability to make people aware of it, use it, and pay for it.

    It sounds like the INFP is far more interested in the workings of step 2, while your husband is more interested in step 1. It's creating a situation where they are speaking past each other, whereas if they can align on the bigger picture, it could actually be a really good team.

    (My assessment might be very wrong here, though. I am reaching a bit.)

    I think I was too radical and it scared him shitless, lol. He tried to give me all these self-help books about, well, I don't even know since I didn't bother to look at them.
    Don't ask me why, but this story just kind of made my day.

    My INTP wrote up an extremely long and excruciatingly detailed report stating what needs to be done to bring this project into the new year, and why. The INFP responded well to it and thought it was brilliant and told him "that's great for sometime in the future, but for now, let's just focus on [thing that has lost him money consistently for the past year].
    Yeah... about that. Um, this is awkward, but it's highly unlikely the INFP really did anything more than skim it. I'm hoping this doesn't piss you guys off, since really, it wouldn't be personal. I'm quite confident his boss genuinely appreciated the work and effort that went into the report, but that doesn't mean he spent the effort to read, mentally consume, and digest the thoughts it contained in order to make a course correction in action.

    I think he's scared of change. He would rather let the project die knowing that he by following the instructions by the book, than risk having it fail because he went decided to go out on a limb. - that way, he is not the reason for the failure.
    Tweaked that a bit.

    I think my INTP has shown him all he can show him in these past few weeks and it's falling on deaf ears. It's sad, but it's the way it is... I would write it off as a lost cause and move on, but I suspect the hubby will just keep on doing exactly what the INFP asks and allow the project to die slowly. I can't imagine him really being the type to kick up dirt. Oh well.
    It's the difference between speaking at him vs to him.

    The good news is that it's probably not necessary to kick up dirt. It's even possible that kicking up dirt will be counter-productive, since the INFP will just dig in his heels. While it's far from definite, I do think there's a way to make this work out.

  10. #450
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Heh. The thing is, the INFP doesn't feel that they are useless. I guess if it were me, I would try saying something like "I understand how important many of the reports are to the business and the company, but I must admit, I'm struggling to understand what role they play in this Facebook app. Can you help me understand what you are looking for from these reports?"
    He believes that the reports will lead him to make a step-by-step approach to follow, but to a crazy degree. Like, what hubby should do on a daily basis, broken down by the hour. Of course, hubby can never get to any of those tasks because he's so busy writing reports and making step-by-step plans. And the tasks themselves seem way off base (imo) and not very future oriented.

    Because the boss finds value in those reports. On the other side of the coin, you have the value that comes from the life that your husband is breathing into the project. But I don't think his boss understands that value yet. Nor do you guys understand the value the INFP finds in the reports.
    My INTP is an analyst by nature and by profession. He lives and breathes analysis. So believe me, if I'm telling you this guy is going crazy with these reports, you just have to take my word for it. I agree that it may be a stalling tactic. I just feel the Te is just... off.

    A successful product that simply doesn't get lucky requires: 1. a quality product that fulfills a need/desire and 2. an ability to make people aware of it, use it, and pay for it.

    It sounds like the INFP is far more interested in the workings of step 2, while your husband is more interested in step 1. It's creating a situation where they are speaking past each other, whereas if they can align on the bigger picture, it could actually be a really good team.
    I think the problem is that they both analyze the situation and have different opinions on what to focus on. The INFP insists on focusing on the failing model. The INTP would like to focus on a model that has been proven to work in his own experiences, after having already given the INFP's model a fair chance during these past few months. *I* am the one encouraging the INTP to also pursue more creative avenues, which he is doing - now that he's not being micro managed.

    Yeah... about that. Um, this is awkward, but it's highly unlikely the INFP really did anything more than skim it. I'm hoping this doesn't piss you guys off, since really, it wouldn't be personal. I'm quite confident his boss genuinely appreciated the work and effort that went into the report, but that doesn't mean he spent the effort to read, mentally consume, and digest the thoughts it contained in order to make a course correction in action.
    That's my point, these reports are useless. If in fact he's behaving as you think he is, he's just wasting everyone's time by pretending to care what others think. It seems like a lose-lose situation, filled with busy work. I could never continue to work in a situation like that. But my INTP has been blessed with infinite patience and a "fuck it" attitude.

    Anyway, I see now that there's really not going to be any real change, if this is going like you think it is. So, I think that my INTP should just do what he is told rather than do the job he thought he was hired for. It will make it easier for everyone involved, I think.

    Thanks for your help!!! This insight was invaluable!

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