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  1. #421
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I actually follow a lot of that (it parallels my experience with TiNe), except that I consider Ti to be the cold, unyielding, dangerous function. Ti cannot be negotiated with, it has no interest in compromise. Its only choice is to speak or not speak, but it cannot change the words that come out of its mouth just to cushion a blow. It can only speak what it sees to be true. Otherwise it would be like saying 2+5 = 9, and it would rather not compromise itself by speaking if told it cannot say the truth.

    I use Ne naturally to cushion Ti truth ... expressing it more flexible ways, as pokes, jabs, jests, insinuations, allusions, etc. Ne is the explorer that asks "what if?" and "why not?" and then relays the info back to Ti.
    This is true for me too. Reading this thread is making me more sure of my type.

    I don't really get upset over what people say to me- it is the underlying message of what they are saying or not saying. Like, you say something and I interpret it as you think I'm stupid. Whereas if you were to say "I think you are stupid," I could just say "Well screw you." For some reason the uncertainty bothers me more. Communication to me is the most important. I'd rather someone just tell me what they are thinking or feeling, so inferior Fe doesn't imagine all sorts of horrible things. And inferior Fe feels ignored if people don't communicate with me, making me feel rejected. I feel like if someone doesn't tell me what's going on inside of them, that says I'm not worth talking to or having a relationship with.

    Good to know it from the other side.

  2. #422
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    I have some questions about emotions. I should probably start with a picture of a cute animal.



    Do your emotions ever confuse you? Are you aware of what your emotions are, or do they look like a jumbled up mess in your unconscious? Do they first appear as physical feelings, or as a conscious kind of perception? Does it take you some time to put a label to them? Do you ever beat yourself up for being "irrational" when you're emotional? Do you ever confuse your emotions with other people's, or is that Fe? Do passion and sexuality help balance your emotions?

    Do you feel yourself as separate from other people, or are you empathic in your emotional response, like if that person gets hurt I feel it too, and it's because I'm not really separate from them? I feel like I am one with the Earth and the living beings on it. So it physically hurts me when the earth suffers and when beings are harmed. I think this is Fe, but does Fi look like this for you?



  3. #423
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Thanks in advance.
    To me, he needs a royal Te kick in the pants and as an Fe user, you can't supply that the way he needs to hear it.

    Next time he's saying things that sound like whining to you, try treating the Fi as you would comfort someone painfully distressed but unable to listen to logic of any kind. Agree with him that everything sucks, even talk in kind of soothing baby-talk. Don't say anything about how to fix his problems. Pout with him, mirror his emotions back to him. Yes, everything IS stupid! Don't use any Fe tools on him at all - the right approach for you is not going to work here. As soon as you give the Fi a place to be heard, be petulant and expand, he will better be able to solve his own troubles, as he will feel that his emotions, no matter how irrational and how distressing, are accepted without you trying to alter them or seeing them as problems that need immediate solving.

    This will be slow and will not be easy. He is taking advantage of your good will and refusing to think on his own and work out his own problems, and in a way, you are helping it to perpetuate. Tell him you love him and you trust he will be able to work it all out. Do not be directive in any way if you can help it. He's in this box and the only way out is through. And at a certain point, you have a right not to spend time with him if he continues to stagnate, because this is his form of manipulation too, knowing that emotional displays do get your attention. He's circling round and round doing the same things but expecting different results. You have laid it all out plain, of how you wish the future to unfold, so he has to grow a pair and decide if you have a future together or not. That's really the crux of it all, right there.



    Edit: an additional thought this morning: Perhaps as I wrote above, your relationship IS at the heart of the matter. Because he can't reconcile what the future holds in that area, about whether or not he can live his life by the parameters you have clearly outlined, it makes EVERYTHING else become a problem. Can't order food, can't fix the internet, can't figure out his education etc etc. Everything radiates out from that one huge question.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 07-18-2012 at 08:19 AM.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  4. #424
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    That's a tough situation @21%

    He sounds genuinely depressed and when people are like that, they're paralysed by their negative feelings and it's difficult to coax them to take action. It can be even worse for an INFP, because the despair over the things that go wrong can be extrapolated out until everything, everywhere seems a hopeless, lose-lose situation for all humanity. To him, the internet or TV not working might be just more evidence of that (it's over-active Ne-Si at play). What seems like whining and defeatism, is in fact merely expression of an all-encompassing disillusionment, that everything is destined to go wrong.

    I don't want to sound critical but you can totally tell you're a J by how you write about it. To you it's very cut and dried and the solutions very straight forward but you have to understand that to him the situation is more complex than that. And the J style problem solving can be pretty hard on P who wants validation rather than being told what they're doing wrong. I'm sure you really are doing your best and that you don't mean to sound judgemental or pushy but it can sometimes come of that way to Ps. You also have to remember that although his complaints sound to you like a call to action, we aren't as action-driven and often don't have a particular intention behind what we say. Just some things to keep in mind.

    That said, it sounds like you've tried being supportive and tried different ways of helping to solve the problem and it's just not getting any better (which I imagine must be very frustrating for you). It seems that more of the same won't help and that something has to change. The thing with INFPs, it's all about perspective - you have to put a solution in the right frame of reference for it to have an effect on him.

    My advice is to approach it along these lines: calmly and kindly (ie. as sympathetic and non-confrontational as possible) acknowledge his pain and that you think, "we need to properly address it and do something about". This means you take it seriously and suggests he needs to as well (ie. serious enough that he can no longer leave things how they are), as well as making it less accusatory and more supportive. Then go on to say something like, "we've tried several different approaches to dealing with and these don't seem to be working, so we're going to have to try something different". Ask him what possible ideas for solving it he has, and try to brainstorm with him (it would be handy to have a few ideas ready - even if you don't think they'll work). Try to listen and not shoot down his ideas and let him lead the conversation. If he becomes difficult and starts getting carried away with complaints about how hard its been or how hopeless it is, be sympathetic but try to redirect him toward solutions. Try to remind him that the situation can't be undone and that, "we can only try to figure out what to do next". Keep it positive and emphasise that something has to be done, however hard it might be. I think you should try to come back to the therapist idea too - it's clear he needs more help and support than you can (or should be expected to) provide.

    I don't know if that helps, but I wish you well

    Edit: what PB said too
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #425
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Do your emotions ever confuse you? Are you aware of what your emotions are, or do they look like a jumbled up mess in your unconscious? Do they first appear as physical feelings, or as a conscious kind of perception? Does it take you some time to put a label to them?
    Ooh good questions...

    My emotions are usually pretty clear to me, it's only making sense of what they mean that brings any confusion. It's like eating a spoonful of some mystery dish and tasting a distinct flavour you totally recognise, but you can't quite work out what it is. The taste itself is clear; it's the meaning of it, where it comes from, and how to define it, that can potentially get complicated. Experience and introspection helps me to recognise and decipher the signs more quickly as I get older. Admittedly, once in a blue moon I will have a bunch of weird emotions assault me in a way I'm totally unprepared for. A couple of times, I have burst into tears completely out of the blue, and think, "WTF! Where did this come from?". It's very strange and unnerving.

    I think it's both physical feeling and conscious perception - I experience emotions very subjectively but often observe them in a removed fashion at the same time. Although, it's hard to get too in-depth in observation in the moment as this affects my concentration.

    Do you ever beat yourself up for being "irrational" when you're emotional? Do you ever confuse your emotions with other people's, or is that Fe? Do passion and sexuality help balance your emotions?
    I constantly beat myself up about irrational emotions. I basically see it as a fault in self-control and in perception. If I lose my temper over something stupid, afterwards I blame myself for lacking willpower, but more importantly, because the reaction was unwarranted and I couldn't make myself see that in the moment. I don't believe I confuse my emotions with other people's as far as I know - I see that separation quite clearly. As for the last question, I'm not sure how to answer it, but I suppose strong positive emotions do tend to provide me clarity.

    Do you feel yourself as separate from other people, or are you empathic in your emotional response, like if that person gets hurt I feel it too, and it's because I'm not really separate from them? I feel like I am one with the Earth and the living beings on it. So it physically hurts me when the earth suffers and when beings are harmed. I think this is Fe, but does Fi look like this for you?
    Hmm, my brand of empathy is not exactly the same I think. It's not as broadly "felt", but when it is, it is very powerful. If the emotion someone expresses is not particularly strong or clear, I will feel it on an intellectual/conceptual level; I think about how horrible it must feel to be in that situation and sympathise. That is not to say I don't care deeply, it just doesn't create mirroring emotions in me. I see other people as separate from myself but I have such a deep appreciation and respect for their individual experiences that I will always attempt to place myself in their shoes. Perhaps I respond more to recognising a wrong that is inflicted upon them, than I sometimes do to their reaction per se; empathise more through the concept of what was done to them - cruelty, betrayal, injustice etc - and through that, I can imagine the feelings they would experience.

    But, if something someone says or does (however small) strikes a particular chord that reverberates in me, a pang of a fundamental human truth, it becomes so incredibly real in feeling; not just mirroring emotions, but a deep and intense sensation, sometimes accompanied with goosebumps and shivers down the spine. It's like it short cuts the mental process and hits me right in the gut. Usually it's the mode of expression that makes the difference - not what is expressed, but how.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #426
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Great response, thanks! I understand things better now.

  7. #427
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Ooh good questions...

    My emotions are usually pretty clear to me, it's only making sense of what they mean that brings any confusion. It's like eating a spoonful of some mystery dish and tasting a distinct flavour you totally recognise, but you can't quite work out what it is. The taste itself is clear; it's the meaning of it, where it comes from, and how to define it, that can potentially get complicated. Experience and introspection helps me to recognise and decipher the signs more quickly as I get older. Admittedly, once in a blue moon I will have a bunch of weird emotions assault me in a way I'm totally unprepared for. A couple of times, I have burst into tears completely out of the blue, and think, "WTF! Where did this come from?". It's very strange and unnerving.
    That familiar taste is a nice metaphor! In generally, I'm rarely surprised by my emotional response... and when I am it's a flag that I need to sit down and analyze what's going on (those emotional responses always mean something). I think when I was younger I was more often surprised, but as I got older my emotional reactions have become more explicable and easier to manage.

    As an adult I still am occasionally surprised by how unaware others can be of their own emotional state. It seems like for them that frequently rise up out of nowhere... like their emotions are inexplicable and threatening. It seems like many people remain unaware of their emotional reactions until they reach a disruptive intensity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think it's both physical feeling and conscious perception - I experience emotions very subjectively but often observe them in a removed fashion at the same time. Although, it's hard to get too in-depth in observation in the moment as this affects my concentration.
    Emotions are definitely experienced physically (lots of studies about this) and physical awareness is directly related to emotional awareness. I think INFPs often aren't consciously aware of the physical sensations that mediate emotional awareness (being intuitives, after all), but that's definitely how it works. I feel like I'm aware of my emotional state as a kind of ongoing barometer throughout my dad. It's always there providing data that I incorporate into my perceptions. As I've said before, it's a bit like going through the day with a dog or a small child by your side. It's reactions aren't themselves rational, but it may respond to things your consciousness misses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I constantly beat myself up about irrational emotions. I basically see it as a fault in self-control and in perception. If I lose my temper over something stupid, afterwards I blame myself for lacking willpower, but more importantly, because the reaction was unwarranted and I couldn't make myself see that in the moment. I don't believe I confuse my emotions with other people's as far as I know - I see that separation quite clearly. As for the last question, I'm not sure how to answer it, but I suppose strong positive emotions do tend to provide me clarity.
    I don't beat myself up about irrational emotions, generally speaking. I separate out the experiencing of the emotion from the expressing of the emotion. So, feeling irritated at someone (however irrationally) is fine, as long as one doesn't lash out. One can also manage one's emotional state to a large degree. It's not direct control, but one can choose what emotions to feed (like infatuation, or offended anger, or whatever). I'm also very aware that there are human limits to self-control, and part of managing oneself is keeping that in mind and avoiding those limits.

    I think the emotions I have a harding time handling aren't passing emotions, but longer term, persisting emotions like guilt and shame (things I should have done better, people I've hurt, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Hmm, my brand of empathy is not exactly the same I think. It's not as broadly "felt", but when it is, it is very powerful. If the emotion someone expresses is not particularly strong or clear, I will feel it on an intellectual/conceptual level; I think about how horrible it must feel to be in that situation and sympathise. That is not to say I don't care deeply, it just doesn't create mirroring emotions in me. I see other people as separate from myself but I have such a deep appreciation and respect for their individual experiences that I will always attempt to place myself in their shoes. Perhaps I respond more to recognising a wrong that is inflicted upon them, than I sometimes do to their reaction per se; empathise more through the concept of what was done to them - cruelty, betrayal, injustice etc - and through that, I can imagine the feelings they would experience.
    I experience empathy (or sympathy or whatever one would call it) somewhat differently. For me, I feel like my emotions are dragged in the direction of the emotional states I perceive in others. So, having a good understanding of my own emotional state is critical for understanding what's coming from my perceptions of others vs what's coming from me internally. Separating the two was problematic for me as a kid, but now I seem less dragged around by the emotions of others.

  8. #428
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I don't beat myself up about irrational emotions, generally speaking. I separate out the experiencing of the emotion from the expressing of the emotion. So, feeling irritated at someone (however irrationally) is fine, as long as one doesn't lash out. One can also manage one's emotional state to a large degree. It's not direct control, but one can choose what emotions to feed (like infatuation, or offended anger, or whatever). I'm also very aware that there are human limits to self-control, and part of managing oneself is keeping that in mind and avoiding those limits.
    Oh, I do make a distinction too but it does frustrate me a great deal to not feel in full possession of my emotions. I hate being bullied and held hostage to them. If I'm irrationally irritated by someone, I want to be able to overcome that feeling, even if I manage to hide it from that person, because I hate the strain it puts on my willpower and the fear that I might eventually snap. I find all that rather stressful.

    I experience empathy (or sympathy or whatever one would call it) somewhat differently. For me, I feel like my emotions are dragged in the direction of the emotional states I perceive in others. So, having a good understanding of my own emotional state is critical for understanding what's coming from my perceptions of others vs what's coming from me internally. Separating the two was problematic for me as a kid, but now I seem less dragged around by the emotions of others.
    Really? That happens rarely to me; it requires a great deal of emotional pressure from multiple angles (or multiple kick in the gut moments like I described). I suppose I respond strongly to negative atmospheres (like people arguing) - I will feel pained and overwhelmed. But I wouldn't exactly consider this empathy; it's more, an emotional sensitivity to my social environment.

    Maybe this is more of a instinctual subtypes thing - I am a social first after all. And aren't you a Sx?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #429
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To me, he needs a royal Te kick in the pants and as an Fe user, you can't supply that the way he needs to hear it.

    Next time he's saying things that sound like whining to you, try treating the Fi as you would comfort someone painfully distressed but unable to listen to logic of any kind. Agree with him that everything sucks, even talk in kind of soothing baby-talk. Don't say anything about how to fix his problems. Pout with him, mirror his emotions back to him. Yes, everything IS stupid! Don't use any Fe tools on him at all - the right approach for you is not going to work here. As soon as you give the Fi a place to be heard, be petulant and expand, he will better be able to solve his own troubles, as he will feel that his emotions, no matter how irrational and how distressing, are accepted without you trying to alter them or seeing them as problems that need immediate solving.

    This will be slow and will not be easy. He is taking advantage of your good will and refusing to think on his own and work out his own problems, and in a way, you are helping it to perpetuate. Tell him you love him and you trust he will be able to work it all out. Do not be directive in any way if you can help it. He's in this box and the only way out is through. And at a certain point, you have a right not to spend time with him if he continues to stagnate, because this is his form of manipulation too, knowing that emotional displays do get your attention. He's circling round and round doing the same things but expecting different results. You have laid it all out plain, of how you wish the future to unfold, so he has to grow a pair and decide if you have a future together or not. That's really the crux of it all, right there.



    Edit: an additional thought this morning: Perhaps as I wrote above, your relationship IS at the heart of the matter. Because he can't reconcile what the future holds in that area, about whether or not he can live his life by the parameters you have clearly outlined, it makes EVERYTHING else become a problem. Can't order food, can't fix the internet, can't figure out his education etc etc. Everything radiates out from that one huge question.
    Thanks PB! You're so right!

    We just had a talk about this (after another fight, unfortunately), and we seem to have come to a better understanding. I have to keep reminding myself that his negative emotions are not always a call for help, which is a concept my Fe finds very difficult to grasp. At the same time, he realizes how much his negative emotions affect me and has significantly cut down the extremes, like talk of suicide. I noticed that instead of saying "life sucks", he has toned it down to something like "today sucks" -- most likely out of consideration for me, which I appreciate a lot. I still try to be as supportive as I can and not try to suggest solutions, but I still feel a bit guilty every now and then and feel like I'm not trying hard enough to make him happy.

    After the talk, he seemed more inspired and now tries to set some time to work on his PhD every day. His mood is quite dependent on the weather -- and since there has been a lot of sunny days lately, he is doing all right (for now).

    The bolded part is scarily true. I know he is here only for me, and he said so himself. Now I can see several scenarios:
    1) He finds a job back home, and we continue to do long-distance with visits, like what we are doing -- which is not that great, but I can live with that. He is not so thrilled by this idea, though.
    2) He finds a job in Bangkok, we get married eventually, and as long as he has me 'all the time', it won't be so bad for him.
    3) Miracle solution -- he somehow finds a job that allows him to travel back and forth between home and here a few times a year (company-sponsored flights). That will solve everything. I will be perfectly happy with this solution.

    I guess I'm trying to push him to be independent here just to try what it's like so he can make a decision one way or another. Maybe it's my J-ness. For him, he still has one more year in the program before his 'writing year', so maybe he doesn't feel a pressing need to do anything. (He's sort of a last-minute kind of person). And by that I mean really, really at the last second -- like book a ticket to a different country 4 hours before the departure time! It drives me crazy occasionally but I guess that's the fun of it


    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's a tough situation @21%

    He sounds genuinely depressed and when people are like that, they're paralysed by their negative feelings and it's difficult to coax them to take action. It can be even worse for an INFP, because the despair over the things that go wrong can be extrapolated out until everything, everywhere seems a hopeless, lose-lose situation for all humanity. To him, the internet or TV not working might be just more evidence of that (it's over-active Ne-Si at play). What seems like whining and defeatism, is in fact merely expression of an all-encompassing disillusionment, that everything is destined to go wrong.

    I don't want to sound critical but you can totally tell you're a J by how you write about it. To you it's very cut and dried and the solutions very straight forward but you have to understand that to him the situation is more complex than that. And the J style problem solving can be pretty hard on P who wants validation rather than being told what they're doing wrong. I'm sure you really are doing your best and that you don't mean to sound judgemental or pushy but it can sometimes come of that way to Ps. You also have to remember that although his complaints sound to you like a call to action, we aren't as action-driven and often don't have a particular intention behind what we say. Just some things to keep in mind.

    That said, it sounds like you've tried being supportive and tried different ways of helping to solve the problem and it's just not getting any better (which I imagine must be very frustrating for you). It seems that more of the same won't help and that something has to change. The thing with INFPs, it's all about perspective - you have to put a solution in the right frame of reference for it to have an effect on him.

    My advice is to approach it along these lines: calmly and kindly (ie. as sympathetic and non-confrontational as possible) acknowledge his pain and that you think, "we need to properly address it and do something about". This means you take it seriously and suggests he needs to as well (ie. serious enough that he can no longer leave things how they are), as well as making it less accusatory and more supportive. Then go on to say something like, "we've tried several different approaches to dealing with and these don't seem to be working, so we're going to have to try something different". Ask him what possible ideas for solving it he has, and try to brainstorm with him (it would be handy to have a few ideas ready - even if you don't think they'll work). Try to listen and not shoot down his ideas and let him lead the conversation. If he becomes difficult and starts getting carried away with complaints about how hard its been or how hopeless it is, be sympathetic but try to redirect him toward solutions. Try to remind him that the situation can't be undone and that, "we can only try to figure out what to do next". Keep it positive and emphasise that something has to be done, however hard it might be. I think you should try to come back to the therapist idea too - it's clear he needs more help and support than you can (or should be expected to) provide.

    I don't know if that helps, but I wish you well

    Edit: what PB said too
    Thanks! Especially the bolded! I'm trying hard not to be pushy but sometimes it is hard to find the right balance between being helpful and being naggy. Sometimes 'reminding' him repeatedly of something actually works and he appreciates it.

    I have learned over the years that Ps do things very slowly, especially INFPs. I always thought I was the most impractical, procrastinating person in the world, but with him I'm the great planner

    I think the main thing is he is extremely stressed out about his future (terrible job prospects in his field, huge loan, not knowing what is going to happen), and I agree that these things are worth stressing out about -- which is why something has to be done, but he is simply too stressed out to do anything about it, so it's a vicious cycle: problem -- stress -- escape -- problem escalates. I have tried for years to ask him to see a therapist, but this stresses him out and he avoids anything that has to do with 'meeting new people'. >_<

    Anyway, I'll try my best to be supportive without being judgy and pushy
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  10. #430
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Do you believe that some elements of yourself should remain secret from everyone?

    If so, how do you reconcile that belief with the expectations inherent in a serious, committed, romantic relationship?
    Last edited by EJCC; 11-15-2012 at 12:05 PM.
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