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  1. #91
    Senior Member SRT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Lol... I do get that and accept it as a valid feeling over the gift-giving process. Of course, to veer off a moment and explore other aspects of gift-giving.... you do realize that giving a gift that later is discovered to not have been what the person wants or needed can create shame in the gift-giver? So if you're not getting what you want, and the gift-giver is developing mistaken ideas over what you want and/or feel embarrassed for getting you something you didn't want... why not shoot for an outcome where everyone can feel good about things? (Not a criticism, just reframing the situation in case that angle has not been thought about.)
    No, I know that, but I think doing this is our (my) way of going for that outcome where everyone feels good about it. I mean, I'll be happy with whatever you get for me, and I get to avoid asking you to get it for me, so it seems win-win. Obviously, this is very individualized, but maybe the idea is that asking is asking for too much. Like, its wrong to ask for more. Or that the affection involved is more important than the gift itself. I totally understand how this can drive someone crazy though.

  2. #92
    Anew Leaf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Lol... I do get that and accept it as a valid feeling over the gift-giving process. Of course, to veer off a moment and explore other aspects of gift-giving.... you do realize that giving a gift that later is discovered to not have been what the person wants or needed can create shame in the gift-giver? So if you're not getting what you want, and the gift-giver is developing mistaken ideas over what you want and/or feel embarrassed for getting you something you didn't want... why not shoot for an outcome where everyone can feel good about things? (Not a criticism, just reframing the situation in case that angle has not been thought about.)
    First, I you and your quesshuns.

    Second, I honestly haven't thought about that angle of things. I grew up learning that A: you don't look greedy and ask for lots of things and B: if you don't like the gift you got, you fake it, because you don't want to make them feel bad.

    Third, I can see a case being made where our Fi is so determined to not hurt other people or our selves, that we go to ridiculous lengths, thereby almost negating the this goal.

    That makes sense. It makes me want to ask more questions about this idealism that finds itself so dissatisfied all the time, but I'm not sure what to ask. Again, it seems like a big difference between the INTP and INFP is detached structure vs personal ethics -- both are rational frameworks, but the INTP seems to try to dampen out internal valuing ("What is true regardless of how I feel about it?") whereas the INFP seems to focus on it ("What resonates most with me personally?"). as William mentioned, this means in a practical sense that Ti logic can usually be derived to the same conclusion in independent parallel thinking, whereas Fi logic really depends on the person evaluating things and might not often mirror anyone else with an Fi perspective.
    To be honest, I would like to know more myself, and hopefully combat why I get dissatisfied. So, ask away, and maybe I can figure it out by talking with you (or whomever else jumps in).

    Good lord, I am going to lose my INFP liscense... I am asking for a consult for help in what is really an inside issue. Gah!

  3. #93
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    First, I you and your quesshuns.
    right back atcha, sweetiebunny!

    (See? I can talk the talk. I'll just need to deprogram later.)

    Second, I honestly haven't thought about that angle of things. I grew up learning that A: you don't look greedy and ask for lots of things and B: if you don't like the gift you got, you fake it, because you don't want to make them feel bad. Third, I can see a case being made where our Fi is so determined to not hurt other people or our selves, that we go to ridiculous lengths, thereby almost negating the this goal.
    I know; Fe merely has some other concerns, so it's good to share them from both ends. It was useful to hear the Fi logic.

    Good lord, I am going to lose my INFP liscense... I am asking for a consult for help in what is really an inside issue. Gah!
    Well, you don't have to train or fix anyone... just share who you are, and let us make up our minds about what you're saying. You're doing fine.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #94
    Glycerine
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    Why do most of the INFPs I know have such a jaded view on life?

  5. #95
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Why do most of the INFPs I know have such a jaded view on life?
    I think that's pretty circumstantial/not type related. And there might very well be as many jaded ETPs and ITPs. In fact, I've heard more "people suck" statements from these types. As jaded as I can get sometimes, I think my focus/attention is still in the direction towards people somehow, rather than away.

    That said, I can't speak for anyone else. I could probably write an essay on all of the things that I'm jaded about, but it would just amount to some gripes about vanity, materialism, and mercantile views that dominate the world. Most will have a hard time even finding love without incorporating those into your persona. I'm also jaded about class, race, gender, and age distinctions. I'm jaded that people can't even have private hobbies without growing up being labeled a dork for them. All of the usual things to be jaded about, I guess.

  6. #96
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Why do most of the INFPs I know have such a jaded view on life?
    I wouldn't exactly call it jaded. The older INFPs have just learned to temper their expectations. It's more a form of pragmatism where we know that real-life will rarely match our idealistic inner-world. I'm still an idealist who thinks that there is good in everyone and if we can harness it correctly the world will be a much better place. As a 4w5 however, I also see the darker side of people including myself and know that there is also the potential of doing not-so-good things.

    It's kind of like "Hoping for the best, but expecting the worst"
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Why do most of the INFPs I know have such a jaded view on life?
    because we need more ENFJs in our lives to take care of us.

    I am at heart an optimist.

    I build beautiful sand castles and then the ocean of reality hits high tide.

    As shown here:


  8. #98
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    because we need more ENFJs in our lives to take care of us.
    Not me. I'm a little jaded about them too. I'll use an ENFJ psychologist I know, who does try to help people.. Yet at the same time, she's full of contradictions in her personal life. Even admits she has a thing for "cocky thugs", and wishes she could get over it. And it almost seems like every NFJ is confused like this for a time. They're not perfect (nor do I expect them to be. I'm just de-mythologizing for a moment). I chalk it up to their latent Se, and woefully retarded/immature views on what is cool about it. They tend to be fascinated with the lowest common denominator expression of an STP at least at one point in their life - and anyone here who denies it is lying through their teeth. On top of that, they'll condescend on INFPs as too sensitive.. even though they themselves are pretty turbulent and confused in their own right.

    Thanks for listening =D

  9. #99
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Not me. I'm a little jaded about them too. I'll use an ENFJ psychologist I know, who does try to help people.. Yet at the same time, she's full of contradictions in her personal life. Even admits she has a thing for "cocky thugs", and wishes she could get over it. And it almost seems like every NFJ is confused like this for a time. They're not perfect (nor do I expect them to be. I'm just de-mythologizing for a moment). I chalk it up to their latent Se, and woefully retarded/immature views on what is cool about it. They tend to be fascinated with the lowest common denominator expression of an STP at least at one point in their life - and anyone here who denies it is lying through their teeth. On top of that, they'll condescend on INFPs as too sensitive.. even though they themselves are pretty turbulent and confused in their own right.

    Thanks for listening =D
    Fair points I know my weaknesses and only related a TINY bit to what you posted. To be honest, my inquiry was based my personal experience w/ INFPs and was not making a generalizing statement about INFPs. I think they can both suck.

  10. #100
    Senior Member SRT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Why do most of the INFPs I know have such a jaded view on life?
    Because they're old enough and mature enough to see that rampant idealism is the easiest way to get hurt in this world, but young enough to not realize the importance of it.

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