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  1. #21
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thank you ladies for your responses! I realize I have not expressed this in actual words to my mum when she gets this way, although she is fully aware of when she is doing stuff that bugs me, but it seems like she feels truly justified in it even when I've told her it bothers me. I notice that she only gets that way when she is under a lot of emotional stress and has no way of improving things. At first I thought it was an expression of how incompetent/irresponsible she seemed to think I was and I felt really badly, but after more than one cycle of it, I realized that it was more about her than me. I just wish I knew how to help her better.

    She carries incredible tension in her body when she is under stress like that too. I've offered to give her a footrub etc, which I know she really likes and needs, but she will often tell me I need to go to bed or something! I think she feels guilty just being looked after in that way. Now I'm learning to insist and she does appreciate it.

    I've also noticed that she cannot relax and let me cook a meal for her, do dishes etc without getting up to help or starting into a new project when my intention is to give her a break. Her mum was extremely hard working and so is my mother, but she considers herself quite lazy. She even apologizes if she has a headache and decides to lie down for half an hour. Is there any way I can help make her feel that it is okay to do those kinds of things without guilt?

  2. #22
    Glycerine
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    She is probably avoiding like crazy what is bothering her.... bring that to her attention. I know that is what I am usually doing. Idle time can force me to solve problem or dwell on it. I bet that is what your mother is doing. She needs to find some better distraction than helping others. It's "easier" to help others than having to deal with your own problems. it's an issue of finding a better coping mechanism. I am guessing that is why she keeps doing things that bother you even though she's self aware.Turn on music or a movie.

  3. #23
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Hey ENFJs,

    If I'm disappointed in one of you guys to the point of contemplating cutting off contact, should I talk to that person about it?

    The problem is that while the issue could be interpreted as a petty thing (which is why I'm reluctant to talk to the ENFJ about it), it meant a lot to me nonetheless and I'm very hurt.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    Hey ENFJs,

    If I'm disappointed in one of you guys to the point of contemplating cutting off contact, should I talk to that person about it?

    The problem is that while the issue could be interpreted as a petty thing (which is why I'm reluctant to talk to the ENFJ about it), it meant a lot to me nonetheless and I'm very hurt.
    I would want my friend to bring it up to me if I did something that bothered them. That way if I really did mess up then I could say sorry, learn from it, and hopefully salvage a friendship . The whole thing could also be a misunderstanding as well, so definitely bring it up!
    Fe | Ni | Se | Ti ... 3w4 ... Lawful Neutral ... Johari -Nohari

  5. #25
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
    I would want my friend to bring it up to me if I did something that bothered them. That way if I really did mess up then I could say sorry, learn from it, and hopefully salvage a friendship . The whole thing could also be a misunderstanding as well, so definitely bring it up!
    That seems like the most obvious answer, except in this case the person in question didn't really do anything wrong, per se. To ask that person to apologize would be absolutely ridiculous. I suppose what I'm feeling right now is a result of the accumulation of big and small disappointments, which is culminating as a result of two very recent - and rather big - disappointments. HOWEVER it really isn't the ENFJ's fault, and therefore I only have myself to blame for allowing myself to feel this way, if anything. I feel like I can't bring this up without sounding petty, childish etc. and so am currently trying to cut my losses.

    It's very sad that a relationship that meant so much to me all these years may have to go. I still haven't completely made up my mind with whether I should let this relationship slide or not. I know it will hurt the ENFJ.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  6. #26
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    She carries incredible tension in her body when she is under stress like that too. I've offered to give her a footrub etc, which I know she really likes and needs, but she will often tell me I need to go to bed or something! I think she feels guilty just being looked after in that way. Now I'm learning to insist and she does appreciate it.

    I've also noticed that she cannot relax and let me cook a meal for her, do dishes etc without getting up to help or starting into a new project when my intention is to give her a break. Her mum was extremely hard working and so is my mother, but she considers herself quite lazy. She even apologizes if she has a headache and decides to lie down for half an hour. Is there any way I can help make her feel that it is okay to do those kinds of things without guilt?
    I am soooooo guilty of this. One of my friends just said to me that I "do more than anyone she knows". I was stunned, because I always feel like if I worked harder, I could do more. Logically, I know I am not lazy, but I always feel like I am. I also have great difficulty allowing anyone to anything for me that I can do myself - it feels like I am shirking my responsibilities. Once again I emphasize feels like, because I logically know that I do things for other people all the time and it is OK to have people do stuff for me too, but the guilt switch just flips. I really do appreciate it when people insist on doing things for me or just do stuff with out me knowing (Surprise! Dinner is made!), because I get exhausted and having someone help me carry the load is what I want more than anything, I just have a hard time allowing people to because of some screwed-up self talk and guilt complex.
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

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    Extroverted (E) 52.5%........Introverted (I) 47.5%
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    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

  7. #27
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    That seems like the most obvious answer, except in this case the person in question didn't really do anything wrong, per se. To ask that person to apologize would be absolutely ridiculous. I suppose what I'm feeling right now is a result of the accumulation of big and small disappointments, which is culminating as a result of two very recent - and rather big - disappointments. HOWEVER it really isn't the ENFJ's fault, and therefore I only have myself to blame for allowing myself to feel this way, if anything. I feel like I can't bring this up without sounding petty, childish etc. and so am currently trying to cut my losses.

    It's very sad that a relationship that meant so much to me all these years may have to go. I still haven't completely made up my mind with whether I should let this relationship slide or not. I know it will hurt the ENFJ.
    What was the petty thing? I know that if something bothered someone and they level-headedly explained to it to me without accusations, then I would try to do w/e I could do to help. It might seem "petty" to you but that's how you feel about it so you should acknowledge it and have the other person acknowledge it. I would personally be deeply hurt if my friend did not tell me what was up.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by copperfish17 View Post
    To ask that person to apologize would be absolutely ridiculous.
    The conversation doesn't necessarily have to end with anyone apologizing though, just understanding.

    I suppose what I'm feeling right now is a result of the accumulation of big and small disappointments, which is culminating as a result of two very recent - and rather big - disappointments. HOWEVER it really isn't the ENFJ's fault, and therefore I only have myself to blame for allowing myself to feel this way, if anything. I feel like I can't bring this up without sounding petty, childish etc. and so am currently trying to cut my losses.
    I was actually in a situation similar to this the other day. There was a miscommunication about something, and someone was feeling a certain way when it wasn't necessarily my fault. They broke it down to me the way you're explaining it right now and I was glad that they did. The end result was me respecting them more because of it, not thinking it was petty. Just break it down to them the way you're explaining it here and I'm sure they'll appreciate it.

    It's very sad that a relationship that meant so much to me all these years may have to go. I know it will hurt the ENFJ.
    These two things right here. ^ You're willing to do this just because you're afraid of sounding petty.. C'mon copperfish, you're better than that.

  9. #29
    Senior Member copperfish17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    What was the petty thing? I know that if something bothered someone and they level-headedly explained to it to me without accusations, then I would try to do w/e I could do to help. It might seem "petty" to you but that's how you feel about it and you should acknowledge it and have the other person acknowledge it. I would personally be deeply hurt if my friend did not tell me what was up.
    Well, to sum it up: I feel that our relationship doesn't mean as much to her as it does to me. Haha I know you ENFJ's get this a lot. Never thought the day would come when I would be upset over this very issue. I thought our relationship was unshakeable.

    A little bit of background to help you understand my situation: I have been friends with this ENFJ for 7 years. We saw each other almost every day over those years save summer vacation etc. I will be moving away along with many of her other friends this year around June, and she's definitely been very sad and emotional about it.

    The two recent disappointments were, respectively:

    1. She wrote to all her friends who were leaving on a same piece of paper and handed it out to all of us. I noticed that a) her message to me was the shortest on the list (about half the length of the longest ones) b) she left out certain details that she mentioned in her message for everyone else and c) she got some details that she did mention WRONG.

    2. She also gave out parting gifts, and wrote things on the surface of the envelopes/boxes of each gift; some had messages like "Open in private!" "Don't open around other people." "(Name), you're the best." Mine didn't have anything like that. What's worse was that the gift was pretty disappointing, to say the least. I see a feeble connection between the gift and myself at best. In fact, the gift was something that I actively dislike receiving. I asked a couple of other friends what they got from the ENFJ and how they felt about it; quite a few were pretty disappointed about her selection of gifts, and one mentioned that "I don't think she really meant to get me a gift, but just didn't want to make me feel left out." I sort of jokingly mentioned to the ENFJ afterwards that she "made some gifts more special than others," to which she laughed and replied, "Yeah I kinda did, but the gifts are meant to reflect each recipient's personality." Really?

    I've got to admit I'm pretty sad. I was pretty certain that was at least somewhat special to her, as she said many things that seemed to imply that I was one of her best friends. I was told many times that I am, quoting her directly, (one of) her favorite(s). We have admitted to each other we thought of the other person as family. We had lots of very special moments together I won't get into here.

    I understand that I can't change how anyone feels about me and it's up to that ENFJ to decide who means more to her. I'm at a loss as to what to do now. I've emailed her yesterday asking for time to talk one on one, but she hasn't given me a reply yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juice View Post
    The conversation doesn't necessarily have to end with anyone apologizing though, just understanding.
    Yes, that's true. Thank you for this advice - I really needed to hear it.

    I was actually in a situation similar to this the other day. There was a miscommunication about something, and someone was feeling a certain way when it wasn't necessarily my fault. They broke it down to me the way you're explaining it right now and I was glad that they did. The end result was me respecting them more because of it, not thinking it was petty. Just break it down to them the way you're explaining it here and I'm sure they'll appreciate it.
    I'll take note of that. Thanks.

    These two things right here. ^ You're willing to do this just because you're afraid of sounding petty.. C'mon copperfish, you're better than that.
    You're right. I guess I was, and still am, feeling pretty hurt and disappointed. I do feel like I'm being oversensitive which is pretty embarrassing, but I suppose my reaction could be due to just how much she meant to me.
    Enneagram: 5w4 5-9-2 (5w4 9w1 2w1) sp/so

    "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience." - Greg King
    The worst mistake people make in political arguments is assuming that the other side is not trying to do the right thing. This simple oversight makes productive conversation nearly impossible.

  10. #30
    Glycerine
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    That's understandable. On the surface, those seem like small things but the underlying message behind those things seem pretty significant. I would be disappointed too. If she keeps acting like that, then she is not worth the time. I think you should ask her where you stand with her because seven years is a long commitment to receive that sort of sloppy consideration.

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