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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Personally, I've noticed they struggle more at verbal communication. The problem with Ne is when the person you're speaking to does not see it as valid, namely, when they discredit its metaphorical style or dismiss its connections as too far-fetched.
    Okay that is true. Ne is more abstract, metaphorical, and thus will find it much easier to tap into certain parts of Fi, though it is far more disconnected from reality than Se.

    Maybe ISFPs and INFPs each have rather distinct problems with communication, I just tend to notice much more concise and insightful self-descriptions from ISFPs. Less confusion. Which is the type of clear expression I lack the most, and so notice the most in others.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think the identity issues with Fi is more of a reconciling an abstract feeling with reality.... I like what the Outsider said (if I grasped it correctly): he has a feeling about who he is (or maybe would like to be), but he doesn't know what his true self is. This expresses a sort of disconnect of the internal ideal self from the self in reality, something I suspect is common to the Fi-dom.
    Yes I think that is true, but I don't want to associate knowledge away from feeling. A simple example is daily instincts, those "feelings" that tell you things, and that are relied upon daily by everyone. They are as much an expression of knowledge as audible thoughts, have helped me solve maths problems, and are about as reliable overall. That same type of knowledge is likely expressing itself through the type of feeling Outsider describes.

    /nitpicking.

  2. #52
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^To clarify, I meant "know" to mean know who you are outside of your own head, in relation to reality. I didn't mean for "knowing" to contrast with "feeling" as if feeling was not a kind of knowing. When I say "feeling", I almost always mean feeling-thoughts, not emotions. I just wanted to highlight the difference between how you feel about yourself versus who you are in a more objective sense.

    For instance, I feel I am an independent person, but are my actions truly in line with that? I may feel I am not my true self if I am not acting in line with how I feel about myself. This can feel like a mask of sorts, but it's not the same as a persona adopted to achieve a goal; it's more out of fear or failure or a compromise with the reality of a situation.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #53
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Gift Differing
    The contrast between the real and the ideal weighs more heavily upon the ISFPs, who are more sharply aware of the actual state of affairs, than upon INFPs, whose iNtuititon suggests hopeful avenues of improvement.
    I've been thinking that I may be ISFP again, for some of the reasons you stated. "Actual state of affairs" are nothing that escape me. I'm well aware of them. For some reason, I'm able to generate more ideas when helping others, but there's a heavy awareness of realism that I direct towards myself. Whether I like what I see or not. I see it, but I think a lot of the actual state-of-things is bullshit. I am more Fi still, despite possibly being Se.

    There was something Thomson wrote about that slightly applies.. when the IFP finds themselves in a state where Fi struggles aligning itself with the world in some way. That ISFPs are more aware of it.. and deliberate in going against it.

    ISFPs, whose tertiary function is Introverted Intuition, are more likely to pursue an alternate lifestyle, attempting to embody their social critique. Sometimes INFPs do this, too, but don't anticipate the conflict this will generate in their lives.

    Does any of that ring true? Sometimes I think it's all INFP, because when I meet ISFPs, they don't seem to have any angst (for the most part). Like they can find nirvana in a beer and hot dog or something. Hot dogs are OK and all, but that's not exactly me.

  4. #54
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    [...] Although, I'd argue that in many ways, Ne gives INFPs a leg up over ISFPs. INFPs are said to be often more articulate with the written word, and there is the advantage that Ne ingenuity brings. You basically have an abstract perception working with an abstract kind of judgment, which allows for an easier "translation". ISFPs have to bridge their abstract judging to a very literal kind of perceiving. Personally, I've noticed they struggle more at verbal communication. The problem with Ne is when the person you're speaking to does not see it as valid, namely, when they discredit its metaphorical style or dismiss its connections as too far-fetched.
    I'd agree with that. The future orientation of Ne is mixed blessing, but it does (surprisingly) have some practical utility. ISFPs seem to be much better than we INFPs at enjoying the present... yet they also tend to be even less willing to suffer through current unpleasantness for a future payoff. The INFP tendency to be less aware of the present and escape into abstraction and potential can come in handy at times. ISFPs seem to have fewer avenues of escape, so tend to focus more on enjoying what can be enjoyed in the present... even when pursuing current enjoyment has long term costs.

    I'm not making INFPs out to be self-denying success machines, or anything... just that I feel that ISFPs may have a tougher time in some structured areas.

    As far as the whole social masking issue... I don't feel like I put up any kind of intentional persona. I definitely keep a fair amount private unless I know someone well, and that leaves a bit of a blank screen for projection. Still, I don't feel like I'm pretending... just being less visibly present than I might be.

  5. #55
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I'd agree with that. The future orientation of Ne is mixed blessing, but it does (surprisingly) have some practical utility. ISFPs seem to be much better than we INFPs at enjoying the present... yet they also tend to be even less willing to suffer through current unpleasantness for a future payoff. The INFP tendency to be less aware of the present and escape into abstraction and potential can come in handy at times. ISFPs seem to have fewer avenues of escape, so tend to focus more on enjoying what can be enjoyed in the present... even when pursuing current enjoyment has long term costs.
    I find myself frustrated on both ends. I can't deal with lot of unpleasantness and can be somewhat impatient when things aren't materializing. I can admire that level of commitment, but I've never been good at it. At the same time, telling me to enjoy the moment doesn't work either. I may want to enjoy it, but I try to find ways to remove discomfort in order to enjoy it.. whether that means leaving, or speaking out, or questioning something. I've never been one to just focus on the moment as a thing in itself. "Ooooh.. I love how the wind just tickles my nose." No.

  6. #56
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    That is the situation I find myself in. There was very little social value to be gained by acting INFP, even internally, throughout my life, and much to be gained elsewhere. I drifted away from it, yet haven't changed the core nature, so it is extreme masking. That's the reason, along with anecdotal evidence, I think INFP males are more prone to this, since INFPness is even less valued in males around the world. They have a strange stoic sensitivity, and lack the quirkiness I see in female ones, which I think may be explained by this.
    Hm originally, I was considering all of the INFPs I've run across regardless of gender, but the females have been more consistent with their social masking. I've found some to have that lack of self, but they still hold onto something of their social mask very hard. It's like they know there's a basis stemming from themselves, but can't quite pinpoint it. The men have been interesting in the way that I'd say they are unwavering in their INFPness, but most have social masked to high holy hell. It seems like being all at once and accomplishing not much other than forms of procrastination.

    Away from the INFP masking, I've noticed how much my INTP ex does this. He knows what he would prefer to do, and who he is, yet he puts on this ESFP mask so people don't suspect who he really is. He'd told me that he was in no mood to have a week of partying heavy and could only handle people in small doses, but that not making appearances would draw undesired attention to himself. He has a severe inability to self-reflect, which I can only assume is related to how few people are aware of who he really is and would not be able to relate in a necessary way (as well as his own fears of who he has been).
    Sometimes it is cause for worry, rather than a playful game of using yourself and others as pawns. Course I'm a firm believer in having a grasp on self, as well as not putting others in harms way through a lack of grasp on self. Goes for any type.
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  7. #57
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I find myself frustrated on both ends. I can't deal with lot of unpleasantness and can be somewhat impatient when things aren't materializing. I can admire that level of commitment, but I've never been good at it. At the same time, telling me to enjoy the moment doesn't work either. I may want to enjoy it, but I try to find ways to remove discomfort in order to enjoy it.. whether that means leaving, or speaking out, or questioning something. I've never been one to just focus on the moment as a thing in itself. "Ooooh.. I love how the wind just tickles my nose." No.
    I wasn't speaking so much of the "look on the bright side of life" approach (ick!), but more in the way of an "if something is tedious, I'll either find a way to make it enjoyable or find something better to do" approach. I think neither ISFPs nor INFPs are great at ignoring their negative emotional state. Can make it a bear when that state is unpleasant and there's no clear fix.

  8. #58
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I wasn't speaking so much of the "look on the bright side of life" approach (ick!), but more in the way of an "if something is tedious, I'll either find a way to make it enjoyable or find something better to do" approach. I think neither ISFPs nor INFPs are great at ignoring their negative emotional state. Can make it a bear when that state is unpleasant and there's no clear fix.
    Ah ok..

    Just to add.. I get conflicting information from different books. Some descriptions make it sound as if ISFPs can mark their differences quite fine. In others, not so much. In Naomi Quenk's "Was That Really Me?" it seems as if the INFP inclination to change their situation is greater. She went so far to say that many ISFPs suffer stress more than other types (for holding back). I wonder if that's true for ISFPs. She's probably one of the most respected authorities atm, and does statistical research, not just theory.. so I'm not going to brush her aside right away (she's also the editor of the official mbti manual).

    INFPs are more likely than ISFPs to leave a highly stressful situation, even though ISFPs try to avoid stressful situations, if at all possible. Perhaps the INFP's auxiliary Intuition helps them imagine alternatives and their generally greater self-confidence allows them to risk new work situations. ISFPs pay a high price for their lower stress tolerance and persistence in stressful work situations: they self-report the highest incidence of hypertension and heart disease of all the types and are also highest in experiencing emotional burnout and depersonalization when they are stressed. INFPs, in contrast, are among the least likely types to experience these stress effects. [p. 109]

  9. #59
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    (This is getting more off-topic, so let me know if I need to delete/move this post.)

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Ah ok..

    Just to add.. I get conflicting information from different books. Some descriptions make it sound as if ISFPs can mark their differences quite fine. In others, not so much. In Naomi Quenk's "Was That Really Me?" it seems as if the INFP inclination to change their situation is greater. She went so far to say that many ISFPs suffer stress more than other types (for holding back). I wonder if that's true for ISFPs. She's probably one of the most respected authorities atm, and does statistical research, not just theory.. so I'm not going to brush her aside right away (she's also the editor of the official mbti manual).

    INFPs are more likely than ISFPs to leave a highly stressful situation, even though ISFPs try to avoid stressful situations, if at all possible. Perhaps the INFP's auxiliary Intuition helps them imagine alternatives and their generally greater self-confidence allows them to risk new work situations. ISFPs pay a high price for their lower stress tolerance and persistence in stressful work situations: they self-report the highest incidence of hypertension and heart disease of all the types and are also highest in experiencing emotional burnout and depersonalization when they are stressed. INFPs, in contrast, are among the least likely types to experience these stress effects. [p. 109]

    What I was trying to get at is the ISFPs (and SFPs in generally) can find delayed gratification particularly challenging. Since Ne-ers tend to live a bit in the future, they get some payoff from the envisioned result. This can become a problem for INFPs if they get all their payoff from fantasy land and don't actually move to bring things about. Meanwhile, ISFPs can end up marooned in realtime.

    And, even though we're getting a bit far afield here, I couldn't resist looking at INFP/ISFP methods of coping with stress. MBTI manual, page 238, mentions a study in which people of different types reported which coping strategies they use. The top and bottom 4 types using each coping strategy is listed, with the percentage of people of that type that reporting using that strategy. For ISFP and INFP (leaving out strategies that doesn't list either type in top/bottom 4):

    Try to avoid stressful situations: #1 Rank ISFP 59.8% (INFP not listedin top 4 highest or lowest)
    Confront the problem: Lowest Rank ISFP 35.7% (INFP 3rd from bottom at 41.8%)
    Talk to someone else: #4 Rank INFP 63.7% (ISFP not listed in top/bottom 4)
    Talk to a professional: #4 Rank INFP 10.3% (ISFP not listed)
    Try to think of options: Lowest Rank ISFP 54.5% (INFP not listed in top/bottom 4)
    Get upset or angry but don't show it: #1 Rank ISFP 36.1%, #2 Rank INFP 34.9%
    Develop Physical Symptoms: Rank #4 ISFP 16.9% (INFP not listed)
    Exercise: Ranked second to last ISFP: 16.2% (INFP not listed)
    Watch TV: #1 Rank ISFP 40.6% (INFP not listed)
    So seems like ISFPs tend to be the least confrontational and most conflict avoidant, and least likely to brainstorm. That does seem like a recipe for getting stuck in situations in which the only way out involves some conflict (like leaving an unfulfilling relationship or job, for example).

  10. #60
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Thanks..

    Well, I seem to not line up with any of that, but I feel like giving some ISFPs a hug now... in any case.

    I hope that doesn't come off condescending.

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