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  1. #11
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I identify with a lot of what you've said here Z Buck, including Ni bringing up so many possibilities that sometimes it is difficult to see something that is relatively obvious to others.

    Definitely I also tend to avoid being the one to take a chance, and I don't think that has always beena positive thing for me.

  2. #12
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    I don't have anything major to add to this, but I have experienced things similar to this. Sometimes when I am in a group of people, it can put quite a bit of pressure on my end to take someone else's word for what it is... "She doesn't trust us.", and I end up going against my own intuition of that person's intentions. Then the result is that the person ends up doing said action I predicted would happen, but chose to let happen because I didn't want to appear like I was mistrustful (even though I was). It's something I've learned, that first I can't go against my intuition, and second, I can't let concerns of what other people think of me get in the way of making the right decision.

    When someone doesn't live up to their word and acts differently, it makes me angry. It's hypocritical and betraying.
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  3. #13
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Example: just because someone may go on tangents about how much they dislike lying- they may even be able to rant about specific frustrations that I can relate well to (thus demonstrating they’ve experienced the frustration of putting up with liars)- it doesn’t mean they are honest themselves. I know when I was younger I would make the mistake of assuming that if I could relate well to someone's rant, then their ethical code must be similar to mine (or I wouldn't be able to relate so well)- but the older I get, it ceases to amaze me how much energy others can put into 'talking the talk' without really being concerned about 'walking the walk'. I think what amazes me most is crossing the path of someone who focuses so much on the 'talking' part that they seem completely oblivious to the fact that they can't control what their 'walk' reveals with yet more talking. If that made any sense.
    It completely makes sense. I think I know exactly what you mean. It seems as though often it is a combination between insecurity and a total lack of self-awareness. I mean, as well as anything else, I would be embarrassed to contradict myself as much as some people I have known. Even with someone who I have a degree of investment in, I will eventually get fed up and tune out when I realise that from day to day they'll routinely make complete about-faces on their opinions on matters major and minor. It can also keep you off balance because when you timidly say "but I thought you felt this way" or "I thought you were planning to do such and such", they've revised reality about the conversation you had with them a mere few days ago to the extent that it all starts to feel quite Orwellian.

    Also, it seems as though people will often rant about the thing that a casual observer can see they do themselves. (Man, I hope I don’t do that, or not much).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I think the problem is not one of dissonance at all. Everyone has a gap between who they are and they project.
    Most people have a different opinion of who they feel they are Vs how others perceive them.

    I feel the real problem is the concept of "Perfection"
    The perfection we expect from ourselves and others.
    Expecting perfection means we can only really have one way to go.. Down.

    We all do it. We all lie about who we are or deny certain behaviors. So, when someone cocks up, why am I so unforgiving? Why are you?
    Why don't we forgive ourselves and each other?
    I have mixed feelings about this. I think I know what you are saying. And to a certain extent I agree. We all make mistakes, we're all imperfect, we're certainly all inconsistent to some degree. And problems arise when you want another person to be something they are not, and project that onto them (more about that). That's more your bad than theirs, unless they are really claiming to be something they are not.

    But I think it is a big problem when you find that someone is so consistently inconsistent that you cannot trust anything they say. I think that's more what I'm getting at. I have started taking big steps away from those people...

    Quote Originally Posted by violaine View Post
    I suspect when I have warm feelings for someone, or I'm interested in getting to know that person in some way, that I am not as rigorous in filtering them. Instead, I'm in information gathering mode and very open to the person as they represent themselves...

    Having had a little experience with it now, I have started to accept that a lot of people are playing a game that I'm not playing... My part in those were that I never assumed anything bad, I just filled any blanks in with trust. :/ ...

    ... And a lot of people, maybe the vast majority, do not work on themselves...
    Violaine...thanks for this and as I'm not sure how to put things in bold (another area I'm a bit stupid in), suffice it to say that the points you wrote above I understand to an INSANE degree. (I think!) I've been thinking that exact phrase, "filling in the blanks", lately. Another thing we all do, I suppose, but it's a good thing to be aware of, how you approach it. I do have problems with trusting overmuch, and yet I don't want to become untrusting, so it's a balancing act. Sometimes I fill in the blanks with trust. Sometimes there are A LOT of blanks, more than I realise, and I fill them with what I want to be there...that can really set you up to get hurt...

    (By the way, I still owe you a PM!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I If someone tells me they care about me, then I tend to expect them to adhere to conduct which demonstrates their care; when they do something which seems like a rather blatant contradiction, I can get paralyzed with an almost immediate implosion of possibilities for why it’s happening. I’m guessing this is what SilkRoad was referring to in the op, with ‘INFJ blind spot’. BAJ mentioned possibilities above, but a large part of the problem (for INFJs, I think) is that SO MANY possibilities like that surface that it’s hard to clamp down and say “quit leading me on!” the way other types might be able to. We get so lost in the possibilities of the reasons for others’ behaviors that we sometimes can’t even see the obvious.
    I also relate very much to this. I end up generating a million possibilities, but of course (consciously or unconsciously) the one(s) I end up getting super-attached to are of course the most favourable to myself, the other person and the situation at hand (and that's not necessarily just in a romantic context. Also something to be more aware of.

    And yes, there are differences between the two examples I cited. One is straight up hypocrisy and I suppose in a lot of cases that is what I am referring to with the "dissonance". Again, I don't think there is anyone out there who is NEVER hypocritical. We all fall into the trap from time to time. It is just that some people seem to make a career of it. I have run into too many people in recent years who espouse a certain highly moral way of life and then go out and do the very things that they are decrying. After I have made a lot of excuses for them - weakness of character, peer pressure, everyone makes mistakes, ad nauseam, eventually I figure out that they are simply being hypocritical. But unfortunately I may have allowed myself to somehow get hurt or even "stumbled" (I'm thinking more or less in the Biblical sense) by them already. I think that perhaps I just need to be more brutal and write people off earlier in some cases.

    The question of the guy possibly leading me on is kind of a different scenario. Honestly, that is one where I bear more responsibility (I have ended up in that kind of situation a couple of times.) It is possible that there is some dissonance between their words and their actions, but I probably have to realise that it hurts me mainly because I've started hoping for a different outcome, and also that the "dissonance" may be mainly due to differences in how I feel such friendships/situations should be handled. In other words - I wouldn't tell an opposite sex friend who I only viewed as a friend that they were super-special to me and no one else understood...even if I actually felt a bit like that, because I wouldn't want to lead them on. But I've had a couple of male friends who I had developed feelings for who had no problem with giving me special treatment but then it turned out they only wanted friendship, or at least that is what they claimed, and I kind of had to take it more or less at face value... In response to BAJ's suggestion/query, I never have actually put myself out there to that extent. But those situations/stalemates ended either with the person informing me (and not very nicely) that they only wanted friendship, or starting to date someone else and later telling a mutual friend that they didn't know I liked them, and that if they'd wanted more than friendship with me, they would have done something about it... I do want to draw some lessons from that though - one of them being that I shouldn't get over-invested when no actual relationship exists - but to look out for "dissonance" in terms of not taking comments like "you're so special" or "you're the reason I'm still in this city" or "I can't talk about this with anyone else" and making more of them than they actually represent. Basically, if the guy isn't following up such comments with an escalation of his pursuit of me, or just asking me out, I shouldn't read so much into them. I do seem to end up liking people with whom there is a lot of ambiguity and mixed messages, and I don't think I can do that to myself any more. Too painful. So no, it's not "hypocrisy" on their part, or not really, but it's mainly a question of whether WHAT I WANT THE WORDS TO MEAN, and their actions, are matching up.

    Fidelia, I loved your post, but I didn’t have a great deal to add to it – I found much to agree with, though!
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  4. #14
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Is it just me, or is this an issue that spans the entire board of Judgers?

    It seems like it is the more and more I think of it.

    I KNOW it's a problem with xSTJ individuals, and can be a problem for some of the more logic-driven xNTJ people. So if INFJs have a problem with it, then I'd think it was a issue of Judging v Perceiving.

    Compounded by the fact that the first non-uniform voice was a Perceiver

    I've never had a problem with it that I can think of. I can immediately see when a person's actions and words don't add up, and I'm usually pretty quick to pinpoint exactly why, such as ulterior motives or an abrasive personality, or just not having gotten a good night's sleep or something.

    It's fairly situational, but it's never been an issue as a general ability.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  5. #15
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I think it spans the entire board of Judgers in the sense that Js are less malleable to external events as the events are happening- and we (Js) tend to want things in the external world to happen according the way we expect them to happen- but I also think this issue in particular affects INFJs more than other types. STJs seem WAY more adept at dismissing someone else’s judgment for transgressing ‘consistency’; the other person either has a valid point or they don’t. INFJs often come from a place of assuming the other person has a valid point- that somewhere in there, it’s based on *something* valid- and our attention gets drawn towards finding and bridging that connection. Essentially, not having tolerance for contradictory signals is only half the problem- the other half (or maybe even more than half) is the consequent distraction of making sense out of why the signals seem contradictory, the distraction of figuring out if someone is worth that effort and the further distraction of figuring out why we feel they aren’t worth the effort (etc, it just goes on and on).

    Of course, there are also INFJs who come more from a place of constantly focusing on how valid their own point of view is (and how ‘others’ don’t see the validity)- but the common denominator here is feeling distracted by an urge to bridge perceived gaps in understanding between people, systematically compensating for the fact that people tend to feel the validity of their own point more than they recognize the validity of others. We’re particularly sensitive to how mindful people are of how their words/behaviors affect others (e.g. how consistent they are), because it’s a critical component of bridging any future gaps in understanding that arise with that individual. I mean, even if we don’t say anything to the parties involved/don’t take any action whatsoever with the product of our reflection- it’s still our tendency to scan our environment for these bridges between people. We prefer the bridges be in place before any actual conflict comes along. I’m fairly certain this avoid-conflict-thru-preemptive-cognitive-mapping is an INFJ commonality, and it does make us particularly sensitive to the consistency of others.** The only time I personally can block this tendency is when the possible conflict I anticipate closely mirrors something I’ve dealt with before (or if I’ve previously dealt with the specific people involved before) and my experience dictates trying to forge a bridge is a thankless dead end.

    /making it 'all about' INFJs

    **[edit:] when I say 'sensitve', I don't mean we take it personally (though that's possible), I just mean we pick up on it very, very easily.
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  6. #16
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    I find it amusing.

    Hint: playing with incongruent tonality is more amusing with people than dogs.

    When you notice it just laugh it off.

    It gets rougher when the participants acting ability is very persuasive. Or the flip side of those who for whatever reason cant sound sincere even when they are.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I sometimes build strong emotional bonds with people, and I sometimes the aspect that they think it is potentially romantic can surprise me. Perhaps it would not do so now.
    I can give a few examples.

    I had a supervisor, and were psychologically intimate. We shared many things, and had deep emotional connections. In politics at work, we were allies. Then one night she invited me over to fix her computer, sending her husband to a different state on an errand. She cooked me dinner. It turned out she wanted to be physically romantic, and I was very upset. I was angry at her for almost a whole week.

    Another time it was in graduate school. I went to singles group, and every night I'd walk home with this lady since she lived in the same general area. She said that I was the only male her cats liked. I took care of her cats when she was gone, and thus I had a key to her apartment. She cooked dinner for me a few times, and we had long conversations in her house. Then, one night she put some slow dance music on an old phonograph, and wanted to dance. I wasn't shocked, but never had a romantic thought entered my mind.

    I don't know if that's what is being described exactly, silkroad? In my case, asking me out would be the best strategy, even if that is not traditional. However, in my case, psychological intimacy where I say I feel that you are supportive does not necessarily mean I want to date you in the romantic sense.

    What is frustrating to me is probably similar, but it's more like in high school. Literally, a girl might pat me on the arm and say, "BAJ, you are so sweet. Don't ever change." Then she'd jump on the back of the motorcycle with the nearest jock.

  8. #18
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    To Silkroad, my best INFJ friend has been hurt very badly by those who have shown her that they care, only to distance themselves or encourage her feelings only to let her down in the end. So much of what you say resonates for me in her life and at times, in my own.

    I think I've avoided falling into this trap (sometimes, not all the time) by understanding that people are contradictory and that their words don't match their actions. Or that their words are sort of fillers and that their actions mean more. Also, that people aren't usually conscious of the impact they are having on another. Some are. I've always trusted the unspoken and actions because they say much more than words. I mean, there are some things that someone would say to me that I would know I could trust came from their heart. Others, not so much. I would distrust or at least be cautious of someone who said that they could confide in me like no other. Only because the confidence itself is proof of that.

    I tend to distrust someone who says that they trust me like no other or can confide in me like no other because by saying so they want, I feel, for me to attach myself to them or that they want to draw me into their circle (to stroke their ego) rather than responding to me more clearly and honestly. If a person really feels this way, there's no need to say it.

  9. #19
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    BAJ - yeah, that's one reason why I think I need to stop being so damn "supportive"... I'm not your therapist while you go off to find yourself a girlfriend... but I certainly don't blame you for being a) surprised, b) mad about the married woman...

    Lauren, thanks. Very interesting. I think a lot of "dissonance" or effusive words not entirely matched by actions have to do with ego and far more with the person saying it than who they're saying it to. Selfish, I think, but there you go. You've mentioned some of how you've worked to counteract this. Has your INFJ friend managed to find some coping techniques?

    Currently I'm a bit worried that I'm going to end up trusting no one. It's unlikely, because I have a naturally trusting nature with those I feel connected to (in whatever way) but I have caught myself thinking lately that "trust no one" is the way to go.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    BAJ - yeah, that's one reason why I think I need to stop being so damn "supportive"... I'm not your therapist while you go off to find yourself a girlfriend... but I certainly don't blame you for being a) surprised, b) mad about the married woman...

    Lauren, thanks. Very interesting. I think a lot of "dissonance" or effusive words not entirely matched by actions have to do with ego and far more with the person saying it than who they're saying it to. Selfish, I think, but there you go. You've mentioned some of how you've worked to counteract this. Has your INFJ friend managed to find some coping techniques?

    Currently I'm a bit worried that I'm going to end up trusting no one. It's unlikely, because I have a naturally trusting nature with those I feel connected to (in whatever way) but I have caught myself thinking lately that "trust no one" is the way to go.
    My friend has coped by basically shutting down. She has become distrustful of meeting someone who won't be a disappointment. By feeling this way, I think she sets herself up for disappointment but I understand why she feels the way she does. I'm trusting by nature as well and I'm more optimistic than my friend. Still, nothing hurts more than someone who leads you on to believe they care and then tells you otherwise. Or betrays you in some other way. When I've had this happen, I do something creative or go camping or hiking. Something life affirming. Running helps me tremendously. I think I'd go nuts if I didn't have that outlet.

    I can spend months and months going round and around about what I did or didn't do (NiSe loop). Recently I've had to tell myself just to stop when I start up with those circular thoughts. I tell myself that for some things, there is no clear-cut reason or answer. I try not to be hard on myself because it takes two and there are many things outside of my control. I start to think that if only I had said this or that (been more open), things would have been different. But, there's no way to know if that's true so it's bad to go down that path.
    Last edited by Lauren; 04-12-2011 at 07:24 AM.

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