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[Fi] What is Fi like for you?

Elfboy

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Fi to me has a yin/yang quality to it
the yin: sweet, mellow, reflective, accepting, comforting
the yang: fiery, intense, convicted, heroic
Fi can range from a warm glow to a white flame that incinerates anything in it's path
 

sculpting

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Hmmm.... Orobas, I think you pose an interesting question about Fi. I've spent a few minutes thinking about it. I've never really examined my process before. So here's my first run at an answer:

My Fi is alway looking for a deeper truth about people. Whatever they say, whatever they do is only a clue for understanding their essence. For example, I may be talking to someone and paying attention to what they do and say. But in the background I'm running a color commentary... or maybe it's more like I'm trying to solve a puzzle. The puzzle pieces are my observations about their behavior. But putting the puzzle together means that I figure out what makes that person tick. That I understand their motivations that make them do or say X, Y, and Z.

Fi is people focused. This may seem obvious, but I think it's important to point out that even in situations in which the conversation is about non-people things, I'm always thinking about the effect on people. For example, I might be talking about the 2008 economic crisis including credit swaps and other financial instruments. My Fi then takes this information and runs it against what I know about what makes people tick. I might comment on how bad US financial policy was in the interest of people working on Wall Street.

Orobas, can you explain your own observations about how your Fi takes in information?

It has taken me a few years of watching my Fi to figure this one out.

1) Each person I see is observed as a thing of beauty, a piece of magic. Their eyes, their face, everything about them is treated as unique of of value, a thing to be savored and treasured for the inner beauty they contain. So when I see them, if I allow it to happen, just by watching them I am filled with wonder and bliss at the beauty humanity can represent, at how each of us, being such a small piece of humanity, contains so much complexity-each individual can never be repeated-they are unique, totally alone, yet totally connected as part fo a greater continuum. The Fi I assume, is the preference for observations of individuality and the inner feelings evoked when I see them. Almost all of this is nonverbal-it is facial gestures, postures, subtle eye movements. Even in words, it is the way the words are spoken, not what they say that gets registered.

For people I see repeatedly, the image above becomes part of a database on that person. Each time I see them, I register if they are consistent with what they were before, and if not subtle edits are made. Eventually, after about two weeks of observation, I have a reasonable working model that I can use for long term comparisons, all unconscious though.

2) The long term model then becomes the standard of comparison. When I see them, if they differ drastically from the "norm", that is when I feel "wrong" as you noted above, but more accurately it is "incongrueant", rather than "wrong"-This will prompt an inqueiry, either in my own mind, via thought, or verbally to the other person to try and understand why they are "different". I suspect this long term model is a facsimile of the other person built into my FiSi. I note very, very subtle diffs, so had to learn that mostly you ignore this stuff or you look for changes of longer duration before acting-thus quelling the Ne paranoia. Comparisons against this standard model also allow for second by second analysis of the other person and an adaptation to their needs on my part-if I register discomfort, by a little eyebrow wrinkle, I spontaneously remold around that need for comfort.

This renders me in the category of a "highly sensitive person" for better or worse.

3) There is a distinct internal mirroring of the other person. Orangeappled described the other person as a separate little facsimile person. For me, I think I associate that little person with myself, they are not separate-thus not only can I observe the reaction of the other-I strongly feel that reaction myself. I can wind this forward in time and calculate the results of my actions upon the other person. Thus anything I do that may hurt another person, I will feel myself, once I understand it hurts them. This severely restricts my ability to hurt others and if I see others being hurt by another, I feel a massive upwelling of fierce, focused, kickass Te/Fi to stand up for the other person and to fight for them, even to my own detriment.

To be excluded from this, I must hate another person, then I can be very mean to them, because I no longer have to bear their pain.

Also- as you mentioned regarding the credit issues-I can do this same sort of play-forward implementation of an idea (like a departmental reorg or a change in loan rates) and then identify how well it will work by "feeling" the pain points of the people (specific or general) involved in the idea. This deteremines if the idea is good or not-the idea has to meet Te metrics to be considered, but it must minimize the Fi people pain to be implemented.

4) I feel the same internal emotive feelings for weird stuff too-science, numbers, the ocean, beautiful plants, pets. I am more open to allowing myself to feel these things honestly, as it is less dangerous. My dog will not knowingly emotionally scar me, another person will. But I kinda get the notion of aesthetic Fi that the INFPs discuss.

My Fi values, are a bit unique I suspect. I wonder if this is part of what leads to the 4w5 mindset-I already am hypersensitive to the uniqueness of others due to Fi, thus my own uniqueness seems magnified ten fold over, due to my sensitivity for uniqueness :) I was reading "Sons and Lovers" and one of the characters noted being exceedingly aware of subtle signs of social snubbing.

Things like authenticity, freedom of speech, responsibility, honor, integrity, not lying, doing what you say you'll do, not knowingly hurting another, self awareness, all trump social harmony in the moment :)
 

Within

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Fi to me is the chain that keeps me angel, without it I would be stuck in angelus mode.
 

rav3n

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Seriously, Fi is like the strength behind my moral convictions. I've got a lot of values which I'm working on weeding out, if they're nonsense. Fi doesn't need me to extrovert those values but it insists I personally live by them. Most recently, I've been looking into Bushido. It's a fascinating code and one that appeals to Fi.
 

Thalassa

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I want to add here - as I believe this may be relevant to this thread, though it doesn't directly answer the OP - that Fi development is crucial for ENFPs, because it would be the only thing that really grounds us in a healthy balance. I believe an ENFP who neglects their Fi might become lost or not feel peace within themselves, always looking outward.
 

Thalassa

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Fi to me has a yin/yang quality to it
the yin: sweet, mellow, reflective, accepting, comforting
the yang: fiery, intense, convicted, heroic
Fi can range from a warm glow to a white flame that incinerates anything in it's path


Seriously, Fi is like the strength behind my moral convictions. I've got a lot of values which I'm working on weeding out, if they're nonsense. Fi doesn't need me to extrovert those values but it insists I personally live by them. Most recently, I've been looking into Bushido. It's a fascinating code and one that appeals to Fi.

I find both of these posts really interesting, as I have been studying Taoism because it appeals to my current Fi development. It does not insist that I follow an organized religion, and stresses that people become unhappy when they try to be what they are not, or try to perform tasks that are not their strengths, that one should not try to change oneself entirely, but rather turn one's flaws into traits that could actually be helpful rather than harmful; it requires both listening to the voice within and listening to nature, living in balance with other living things in compassion, humility, and frugality.

It has a lot of stress-relieving techniques (breathing properly, for example) and instructs a person to fight fire with water rather than with fire, and to practice wu wei...which literally means "not doing"...but it doesn't mean people should literally do nothing, but to to do things in a proper balance, rather than forcing.

I think it matches a lot of my inherent Fi beliefs anyway, and is a philosophical way to grow and be mindful.
 

sculpting

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I want to add here - as I believe this may be relevant to this thread, though it doesn't directly answer the OP - that Fi development is crucial for ENFPs, because it would be the only thing that really grounds us in a healthy balance. I believe an ENFP who neglects their Fi might become lost or not feel peace within themselves, always looking outward.

But what does this mean, this development of Fi? I hear people say it all of the time, but I'd love to hear you guys thoughts of what it is to neglect/not neglect Fi.
 

skylights

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yeah... i don't know... horse metaphor again... learning to ride with it? like you can try to tame it but that's not right, then it loses its spunk, you need its spunk. you need the burning fire to keep everything warm. taming the horse would stifle its wildness and beauty and passion. but setting it free isn't right either, you can't let it have control over you... that's bad too, it's harmful both to yourself and to it... it can lose itself in self-destructive fury... i think some kind of aware symbiosis...
 

Amargith

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It's a cliche but Fi is what *feels* right.

It's what makes you go:Mmm..this outfit needs...*something*. It's lacking something to be *just* right. Then, when you add that splash of colour in the exact right spot, you can feel yourself going: 'ahhh..perfect!'.

In more complicated situations, it's like a car accident. One problem in a situation that makes the situation off is often not that hard to track down and rectify...just as it's usually not that hard to figure out how the car crash came about. But when the icey roads come together with a misty fog, topped off with full blast raining cats and dogs, people tend to back into each other and cause a chain reaction..And try figuring out then where and how it all began :doh:

Head ache ensues.

As an ENFP I often use it in this way:

Ne: I pick up on a pattern I find interesting in for instance other people.
Fi: I decide if it *feels* right
Ne: compares it to other situations I've noticed similar patterns in and cross references it against other situations what weren't as clear Fi-wise or that were crystal clear Fi-wise.

I copy paste the situation that is crystal clear into the situation that is muddled, Fi-wise..the situation that somehow just can't seem to work, like a puzzle that won't make sense. And I use it to ID the pieces in Fi that I might've not seen were there, or hadn't considered in that way before.

I then take the situation and generalize it, and store it as a Fi-experiment. After it's been thoroughly tested against even more situations, it becomes a part of the Fi manual guide to life.

I also tend to self-reflect a lot on abstract values I have and retest them in other fields I've recently discovered to see if they're still up to code..if they need finetuning, if my grayscale is still balanced and precise enough.

It can drive me crazy when something doesn't *feel* right and I cannot put my finger on it, and all the stuff that I've encountered doesn't seem to match up. It comes up as a ???? in the Fi-computer basically. And, ignoring it and going along with the situation anyways is a guaranteed failure, ime. Procrastinating and leaving it to 'come to you' isn't always feasible and pisses others off. This is one of the things that INTJs tend to roll their eyes at us for, and ENTJs evne more so. They present you a solution on the problem and get pissy that the solution isn't used by you...but something doesn't *feel* right and you are somehow unable to use their solution which works brillianlty for yourself in a similar situation. Often their advice holds a valuable key however to figuring out your *own* solution, but it's mindboggling at time and highly *HIGHLY* unpractical irl :doh:
 

Thalassa

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But what does this mean, this development of Fi? I hear people say it all of the time, but I'd love to hear you guys thoughts of what it is to neglect/not neglect Fi.

I think people who neglect their Fi may try to repress their empathy for the sake of trying to conform to externally measurable logic (Te) at their own peril. I think people with completely undeveloped Fi are blindly selfish rather than rationally ethical. I think in order to mature in Fi a person must do internal reflection and consider ethics in a more rational fashion....there is no "right" or "wrong" way to do this, but I believe that it's crucial.
 

Esoteric Wench

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But what does this mean, this development of Fi? I hear people say it all of the time, but I'd love to hear you guys thoughts of what it is to neglect/not neglect Fi.

I can only respond to this based on my personal experience (<- How very Fi of me, btw), but perhaps other Fi users will identify with it:

I don't think anyone develops (neglects/does not neglect) their Fi. I think the best we can hope for is to develop how we use Fi, or any cognitive function. We can learn to fine tune its application including when not to let it drive our behavior and when it's appropriate to bring it into play.

Before I had even heard about cognitive functions like Fi, I was developing skills to fine tune my control over my Fi. By this, I mean that I had already identified a couple of flaws in myself that only later I would find out were Fi related. Then, I tried to work on these problems. I think this pattern of identifying maladaptive behaviors and then working on them is a sign of general maturity and wisdom. You don't need to understand hierarchies of cognitive functions to do this. But after I learned about Fi, whoa Nellie. I was able to identify my misuse of Fi with even more accuracy, and thus develop my finely tuned control of Fi even more.

In retrospect, I see that my Fi problems seemed to fall into two categories:

  1. Fi on overdrive - This is when I let my Fi impulses drive my behavior. I was over-indulging my Fi. For example, I had a very strong rebellious streak that vigorously fought against anything that I perceived was preventing me from being my true self. I didn't know that this was my Fi in overdrive, but in a way, I didn't need to know about Fi to know that my rebellious steak was causing me problems. It seemed out of balance and I knew I sometimes overreacted to perceived threats.
  2. Not using Fi enough - This is when I don't use my Fi to check my Ne. It seems like our secondary functions must ALWAYS be used to check the excesses of our dominant functions regardless of personality type. I also got myself into trouble by letting my Ne run amuck. Being Ne dominant, I love to take in new information. But sometimes, I take in new information at the expense of sorting and make judgments on the information I was taking in. This lead to all sorts of problems for me.
Neglecting vs. Not Neglecting Fi
The point of my post is that to neglect Fi is to not attend to how you are using it. To not neglect Fi is to be mindful of how it operates in your life and then to tweak how you let Fi drive your choices. When it comes to Fi mindfulness for ENFPs, I think the two problems I identified above are the areas that we need to be mindful of.

BTW, I did not mention it in this post, but another aspect of being mindful (or not neglecting) one's Fi, is understanding Fi's strengths and leveraging those strengths whenever possible.
 

alcea rosea

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For me, Fi is about deep emotions, empathy and strong values in life. It makes/let's me focus on people instead of other things.
 

Viridian

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  1. Not using Fi enough - This is when I don't use my Fi to check my Ne. It seems like our secondary functions must ALWAYS be used to check the excesses of our dominant functions regardless of personality type. I also got myself into trouble by letting my Ne run amuck. Being Ne dominant, I love to take in new information. But sometimes, I take in new information at the expense of sorting and make judgments on the information I was taking in. This lead to all sorts of problems for me.

Would you mind elaborating on what kind of problems this has caused you, Miss Wench? :)
 

sculpting

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But what does this mean, this development of Fi? I hear people say it all of the time, but I'd love to hear you guys thoughts of what it is to neglect/not neglect Fi.

hehehe, if I may quote myself, lately I have been dealing with Te and how to use it productively. The problem is that the te wells up very strongly but used in a vacuum, can be really brutal and blunt-like a little ESTJ kid. It also is Te on speed due to Ne rapidly shifting focus and the fact that using Te takes energy, so I will find the quickest solution rather than the best solution at times, so I can stop using Te, because I get tired.

I have found most recently that if I am looking at multiple Te paths forward, if I can stop and really assess the Fi value of each path, I can become more energized to pick the best of the paths or perhaps pursue no path at all and instead just not act. So for instance in a more negative example, I may get in an interaction with a sales team member in which I want to send a flaming response back to them as they have made multiple requests on the same topic. Each request requires more and more Te and finally, tired, my responses will get more and more blunt. However if i can pause and assess the internal feeling-it feels tired, exhausted and strained. So if I can take a moment, force myself to relax, look at why the info is important or how unimportant the little frustration is, or focus upon the Fi value of providing the information, it can renergize the Te, so that I can be productive in my response.

It is the checking back in on the Fi feelings-like vala says-that helps balance how and where the Te can be most productive.

Focusing more of Fi also means looking, not at the fun of many, many interactions, but the value each relationship holds in it's depth for me. Taking the time to look at a person as an individual, not just as a person around me. It can be hard to do that in a workplace, given time and stress.

But the internal gut check is the key I think, although vala described it very, very well, much better than I can.
 

Rebe

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Fi is the very best and the very worse in me.

"Nothing contributes so much to tranquilize the mind as a steady purpose - a point on which the soul may fix its intellectual eye." Mary Shelley

It's not just an ethical drive to do good, it's also intellectual, imaginative and logical. I triple-check my thoughts to the point of obsession. I push myself to figure out solutions and I push myself to change, to be a better and more efficient person all the time.

Fi makes me hyper-sensitive and hyper-responsive to criticism and negative circumstances and horrible people. I don't do well with practical, cold matters or practical, cold people. Sometimes the answer is obvious but I can't see it because my feelings are in the way, blurring the obvious. When I do figure it out, it's a complete duh.

Fi compels me to be empathic, loyal, generous and kind. It makes me ambitious and hopeful, it gives me purpose and strength. It gives me clarity of what's important personally and universally. It gives me insight into what's complete bullshit and allows me to avoid people who are untrustworthy. I have my own guidelines of moral conduct and responsibility. I resist the group mentality. I put myself directly in other people's shoes; it gives me many dimensions of truth.
 

Thalassa

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I can only respond to this based on my personal experience (<- How very Fi of me, btw), but perhaps other Fi users will identify with it:

I don't think anyone develops (neglects/does not neglect) their Fi. I think the best we can hope for is to develop how we use Fi, or any cognitive function. We can learn to fine tune its application including when not to let it drive our behavior and when it's appropriate to bring it into play.

Before I had even heard about cognitive functions like Fi, I was developing skills to fine tune my control over my Fi. By this, I mean that I had already identified a couple of flaws in myself that only later I would find out were Fi related. Then, I tried to work on these problems. I think this pattern of identifying maladaptive behaviors and then working on them is a sign of general maturity and wisdom. You don't need to understand hierarchies of cognitive functions to do this. But after I learned about Fi, whoa Nellie. I was able to identify my misuse of Fi with even more accuracy, and thus develop my finely tuned control of Fi even more.

In retrospect, I see that my Fi problems seemed to fall into two categories:

  1. Fi on overdrive - This is when I let my Fi impulses drive my behavior. I was over-indulging my Fi. For example, I had a very strong rebellious streak that vigorously fought against anything that I perceived was preventing me from being my true self. I didn't know that this was my Fi in overdrive, but in a way, I didn't need to know about Fi to know that my rebellious steak was causing me problems. It seemed out of balance and I knew I sometimes overreacted to perceived threats.
  2. Not using Fi enough - This is when I don't use my Fi to check my Ne. It seems like our secondary functions must ALWAYS be used to check the excesses of our dominant functions regardless of personality type. I also got myself into trouble by letting my Ne run amuck. Being Ne dominant, I love to take in new information. But sometimes, I take in new information at the expense of sorting and make judgments on the information I was taking in. This lead to all sorts of problems for me.
Neglecting vs. Not Neglecting Fi
The point of my post is that to neglect Fi is to not attend to how you are using it. To not neglect Fi is to be mindful of how it operates in your life and then to tweak how you let Fi drive your choices. When it comes to Fi mindfulness for ENFPs, I think the two problems I identified above are the areas that we need to be mindful of.

BTW, I did not mention it in this post, but another aspect of being mindful (or not neglecting) one's Fi, is understanding Fi's strengths and leveraging those strengths whenever possible.

I think this is a very good post. I think using too much Ne without Fi judgment can lead to a feeling of being unfocused, ungrounded, and it's just not a good feeling for me if its done in excess. I agree about the mindfulness too.

Fi in overdrive isn't good either.
 

BAJ

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. So for instance in a more negative example, I may get in an interaction with a sales team member in which I want to send a flaming response back to them as they have made multiple requests on the same topic. Each request requires more and more Te and finally, tired, my responses will get more and more blunt. However if i can pause and assess the internal feeling-it feels tired, exhausted and strained. So if I can take a moment, force myself to relax, look at why the info is important or how unimportant the little frustration is, or focus upon the Fi value of providing the information, it can renergize the Te, so that I can be productive in my response.

Work is challenging. I can get pretty beat up.

First, the main sales person is ESFJ, who wants very factual, exact numbers "yes" or "no", which is never the case. (I don't really answer with yes and no.) Also, it never works that way. For example, she wants to have number like "five boxes", but I don't even what to make a list at all because she's just as likely to sell 10. Thus, if I think I have five, then should I put two?

I have an idea of each customer. Some have visited, and I've met them. Some have complained. Some have given praise. If they make any communication, good or bad, then I remember that. For example, two years ago a certain customer made a comment that they like the color yellow. They said to me in the courtyard of a certain hotel, next to the second tree on the left. Etc.

In addition to customers, I remember all the communications with the owners and the office. The interests of the sales person, the customer, myself, and the owner must all be considered and balanced. The salesperson may have a special relationship to a certain customer. Also, the particular order might be for the Owner's close personal friend or for his mother. One customer may get a certain deal, and not another. I want to understand who gets what, and why. Some get a better deal because of their position or because of a favor they can do.

Most customers want more expensive goods for cheaper prices. Thus, if you don't have some ground rules, then they will try to manipulate their best deal. They want discounts overall, and discounts based on arguments about levels of quality. There are multiple layers of pricing based on how much they buy in a year. In addition, there are about five levels of quality based on logical criteria as well as overall aesthetic impression (what the beauty of a fish "feels" like), and these are different for all 25 varieties we sell. Also, this can vary based on how rare something is. Fish are judged at shows, and there are criteria, but different judges can reach different opinions. In addition, our market may be different than what the official judges think.

So, with each customer order, I'm considering all this: the owner's mandates as well as everything I know about that customer, as well as the judging of fish logically and aesthetically.

Add this in: The owner feels that if nobody complains, then they are getting too good a deal. But, Catch 22, if anyone complains, we are in trouble.

There's lots of arguments between everyone. Our opinions of quality differ, but I can't do everything myself. I have to learn to let go of some battles. In others, there's no way to ever make it into the ideal, so I have the choice of how that bothers me. I still want the ideal, but after years of trying I've distanced my emotions from being attached to that perfection. "The perfect is the enemy of the good", as the expression goes.

So, some things I believe I just can't explain.

I can put myself in the owner's shoes, the primary customer, the customer's customer, the sales person, I understand them, and their motivations. But often, I don't feel they understand my situation, and why what they are asking is crazy. A ten minute conversation between the office and the customer can result in us working until mid-night. I'm working to make the world better for all, and move the product. (We are all on the same team.)

I have a great deal of issues with my perfectionism. It's not like we can paint fish a different color. It takes a year to make a small fish, and multiple years to make a big one, but motivating them to sell what we have is difficult. I always say, "It's easy to sell a unicorn. Finding it is the problem." It doesn't matter if I have 400 boxes available; they sell one I don't have.

Last week, they were explaining that the list of what we have is important and that I really DO need to make it, and in the very same phone conversation, they asked for something we don't have. And it's like they are saying, "Ah, I know you can find it because you are amazing!" Answering "No" did not have any effect, like my "No" is not really "No." Thus, I trying to get the best result for positive feedback, thus nearly work myself to death.
 
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