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  1. #101
    Senior Member Santosha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Why act like that, when you can just genuinely be that?
    *Totally hits the nail on the head.*

    I don't agree with mind games.. but I haven't seen too many examples offered up in this thread that I would constitute as real mindgames. I do agree that when initially meeting someone.. it it is very self preserving to keep some degree of psychological distance. But don't take it too far.

    When i was younger, I played terrible mindgames of the likes of the OP. My BestFriend, an ISFJ could never understand why i did this when we'd meet guys. We'd actually fight about it, but I'd usually win by strategically manipulating her to follow my plans, and Ya i now realize how rotten that is. If we made plans to hang out with guys.. I'd make sure that we hit 2-3 parties before meeting up with them. We'd often be very late. While we were at these other parties, if I saw my ISFJ bf texting in a corner texting them I'd take her phone.. and tell her to enjoy the moment and quit putting all her eggs in one basket. She couldn't understand my strategy. She felt that if you like someone the LAST thing you want to do is create doubt, and ya know what.. she is right. I lost one of my very best relations with an INTJ because I played too many games, kept too much psychological distance, pushed the "I dont need you card" too far. I created so much doubt in him that he couldnt bear it. When I realized how far I'd taken it.. I couldnt un-do it either. No matter how much I tried to convince him of how important he was, he couldn't overcome what he'd already seen, the seed was planted.

    Also, someone mentioned that they feel a deeper intimacy with friends.. and I have seen this ALOT! It's not just younger people. Infact, everyone one of my best freinds is married or in LT relations (all 29-33) Out of the 8 of them.. only 2 other friends have what I'd call a more emotionally intimate connection to their SO. Isn't that crazy! And ya, I believe most of them are still very satisfied with their relations. They would still loyally pick their SO over us girls. Fact is, there will always be things that your best bud is going to understand over your man. Simple things.. like how waking up in the morning with a boner in the back doesn't cut it, and that you might need a bit more attention. Or how scary it is when your 9 months prego and yoru mucus plug falls out in the tub, or how shitty you feel on your cycle, etc. There are alot of ways women can bond that men fall short. But that would be a whole different thread.
    Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun - Watts

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescent Fresh View Post
    I had an interesting discussion with a friend and she's a firm believer of using mind games to attract attention from men.

    Though I am sure that all of us sort of play some sort of minor deceptive games a little here and there, but as for me I only use it to help me getting out of troubles, such as unwanted attention or responsibility (like work politics). I'll never use it for the sake of grabbing someone's attention if I'm deeply interested in them.




    Anyhow, this is how she thinks:

    "Mind games work. if you are too available--you fail. If you're too easy--you fail. You have to be a challenge. You gotta show a guy that you have a life and it doesn't revolve around him. You're desirable and attractive so act like it. You call the shots so if you act like the boss you will get what you want. Girls who do whatever the guy wants them get played, girls who boss up dont. Let him miss you. You can't achieve that without playing mind games."

    So I wonder how you think of this?
    Ughhh mind games are evil. I will admit that they can, (only sometimes), create attraction, but not genuine positive feeling. I have at times been really attracted to girls who do this, (like i said though it often just backfires on them), but behind that attraction i had a sort of revulsion for them. I'd agree that in terms of looking for a serious or long term relationship there is nothing sweeter or more a appealing than someone completely straightforward.

  3. #103
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Scarcity does creates value, but the value in this case is superficial, fragile and energy consuming.
    Nevertheless, it's important to not come off as needy, so there must be a balance.

  4. #104
    Diving into Ni-space Crescent Fresh's Avatar
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    Wow! I honestly didn't expect so many posts have been generated!


    Quote Originally Posted by Idris View Post
    I think this would be better addressed in the Relationship's sub-section, but mind games exist with, or without intent. Honesty doesn't take someone off the hook. I'll elaborate further when this topic broadens beyond the NF extremes.
    Honestly I have browsed through the entire forum but couldn't locate the sub-section. If you don't mind, I would like to know where it is.




    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    For example:

    You gotta show a guy that you have a life and it doesn't revolve around him. [...] Let him miss you. --This is actually very solid advice.All the psych experts say that you should try to retain a degree of healthy detachment, especially at the start of a relationship. That way you're in a better position to evaluate the other person objectively and to break things off if troubling signs appear.
    This is exactly what I mean, and works for friendships even. I don't think people will generally miss each other if you get to see them too often, or available. This is probably the biggest problem for INFJs as one of our significant traits is being clingy to those who mean the world to us, or those people (especially ENFPs) who we are drawn to immensely. Nevertheless, that's part of mind games that's being played.




    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    People want to be attracted and stimulated by their partner. If you are not at least somewhat interesting.....its not going to last. You can't just stay in your own bubble and own form, without getting into the mind of the person you are interacting with...and you shouldn't be encouraged to do so either.
    I wonder what's your type in typology? I quite enjoy reading your posts along the way. Oh, and I absolutely dig your sassy avatar as well!

    Here's the thing, I'm once convinced that those introverts who should take it all slow and natural and let others (especially for those Extroverts) to get to know you once you've found a potential admirer. The sad thing is, that's also when many opportunities will die off if we're not being receptive enough.

    I once dated this guy and thought we connected really deeply though I am really bad at expressing my inner-emotional through my facial expression, so he ended up giving up, thinking that I'm uninterested toward him.

    So for me, in order to break the bubble around us, I would say that the only way to get away from this vicious cycle of letting a potential lover slipped away is to play games a little in the early stage.




    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    On the other hand, being too obviously admiring and pursuing a man openly appears to be some kind of turn off. I guess it looks bad to them, even if the real story is I'm still seeing other people. It doesn't matter if you're still maintaining your own life or even not keeping all your eggs in one basket...it just matters what it looks like, at least in the beginning.
    Of course, but staying mysterious and playing a little hard to get probably won't.



    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    not to say i go overboard when i give up, but i usually end up making some little contact or smiling or whatever else that opens my door back up again. perhaps it's a good thing. never have i ever had anyone say to me that i seemed desperate - if anything, i have heard that i am somewhat aloof and send mixed messages - but i feel like my inability to just run away robs me of power.
    Don't you just hate that? I have the same problem here. However, usually when others considered that I've been sending mixed signals, most of them interpreted it as negative instead of positive signals (perhaps due to my pickiness?)

    (though, i should note, that i don't really fall for people until we know each other fairly well... so by that time... i really have something to lose if "ignoring" is interpreted the wrong way.)
    Wow, you sound like my idential twin there! Don't you just hate that when that happens? On what occasions do you ignore? I usually do that to avoid conflicts or if I was overwhelmed by disappointments. I just need to take my own space a little for that matter.

    I've been rarely falling for strangers like you. I usually fall for them after I get to know them deeply on a personal level. Though I must say that one of the sign to show that I'm interested in people is to start finding ways to get closer to them, without dropping any hints. The thing is, after a while, once they've opened up to me privately and share their dark sides, I fell "immediately." Does this happen to you too?

    Btw, I really like the links under your signature. Can I use it too?



    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    My older sister once told me "The one who loves the least controls the relationship".

    It's true.

    This is why I despise games, but as much as I wish they didn't exist, they do exist.
    Beautiful quote, btw!

    I assume people started to play games, not only restricted in controlling a relationship, when they've been hurted consecutively. I mean even most kids know how to lie to get away from blame. Any lie is a form of emotional manipulation and it's part of mind games to me.



    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i think we also "play games" in part because emotions can come on strong and uninvited... if a not-very-close friend confessed their love to you, would you really be able to handle that in the same way that you could handle perhaps a little flirting, and then a little more flirting, and then a little more? it would be more truthful of them to open up, instead of pretending to only be a little interested, but would it be better...?
    True, I've always have problems to reject someone by simply saying "No" as I don't want to hurt their feelings. Though what I hate about the whole notion of playing games is that it added extra layer of negative suspicions when I try to read people. Someone may be genuine about expressing their feelings (like if they are being overly-enthusiastic), but that can lead to many false accusations--particularly of my "J" influence on jumping into conclusions (which I'm still trying to work on it).



    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    I have to say that girls, and marmies posts on this subject are exactly part of why I dont even try to date anymore, i was pretty unsuccessful as it was because people who believe that everyone is playing these control games, never trust that you are not playing games too, and since they cannot figure out what you are doing (since you actually are not playing games) they get scared, thinking you are out playing them, and they've lost all control... and they run off...
    It's hard to believe this is coming from an ENFP. But you have made some intresting points for me to ponder upon. I think for myself, sometimes I have this 'blank' expression that people can't really read what I'm thinking, and those who're really into playing games thought I did outplay them (when I did nothing, and it's frustrating).

    For example, I was interested in this guy and then I tag one of my best friend along (and she's quite masterful in playing games). We all had a weekend-getaway and partied in a different city, which is 50 miles away. Anyways, we all got pretty drunk and I ended up passing out in my bed (she's supposed to share the bed with 'me'), after a little while, I started to hear the mattress from the other bed start tweeking. So I was overwhelmed as she knew that I am head over heels on him prior to the trip. Anyways, the next morning, I pretended nothing happen (nor they), and since I felt really uncomfortable (note: I didn't feel angry, but rather embarrassed to be in their 'newfound fling' company, I insisted that I want to drive the car back. Though in the middle of negotiation (she promised to drive back home as I droved there in the first place), I just slurred out and told them, "I knew what happened last night and I don't want to feel awkward by being a passenger." She thought she got snapped by me whereas I just wanted to keep my mind busy through driving. It's weird that from that day she had accused me of playing games to irk her off, when my intention of offering to drive is pure.



    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    and heres the issue, what you are describing is NOT a lack of games, or honest open-ness, its ANOTHER type of game, the kind of person that uses being "open" as a form of control, it is not the same as being open and honest, because the person is not taking responsibility for their own feelings, they are pushing them on to YOU... refusing to play mind games is much different, by refusing to play it does not mean that you tell them automatically every little thing you think and feel, but you DO if they are interested in it, you dont lie about your feelings, you dont hold anything back when honesty is asked for, but it doesnt mean you have to gush all over everyone, and try to make THEM responsible for YOUR feelings... trying to force somebody else to take responsibility for what YOU feel is just as much a part of the mind games as any of the others, and its one a lot of people play on themselves as well...
    Excellent point. I do rarely open up to people even if they're close to me. It takes years (not exaggerating) for me to reveal my most private information and all. Though I thought most ENFPs do have a power to lead others to open up (their magical ability of questioning). And of course, I'm not referring to those creepy people who randomly openup to you in the beginning. I had a co-worker once told me his tragic story (his wife got killed a day after the wedding from an accident) on his "first day" of work. I'm not sure what's the intention there. To start up a conversation? With that? Anyhow, I build an invisible wall around him from day two afterward.



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  5. #105
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    Im much to tired at the moment I think to adequately reply to the rest, but yeah, the vast majority of people open up to me, usually immediately, total strangers find themselves doing so then getting all embarrassed, thats how most of my friendships start,lol... but that often also puts me in the friend zone, or the people react badly, they have opened up far more than they are used to, and that scares them, so they then really withdraw and then distrust anything I say for a long time, because they wonder if im somehow trying to play the manipulation game with them based on what I know... its kind of sad, although I understand...
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  6. #106
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure about deliberate mind games, and that they apply to many. While I think they apply to some, I don't think it's the norm.

    What I do think happens (and this has probably already been mentioned, I just haven't read the entire thread) is that the very nature of differing personalities, and differing comfort/vulnerability levels, as well as pacing, means that in trying to account for and respect the other persons' maybe-differing levels, you might need to pull back more than would be 'natural' for you, or hold back some in the beginning to 'test the waters', so to speak, to ensure that YOU aren't going to be hurt and that you're not misreading the situation and the other persons' interest. And, the other person's definitely doing the same thing too. It can seem like a game, I guess, just because of the nature of not wanting to overstep boundaries, overwhelm the person if they're not 'there' yet, or simply trying to gather whether the other person is on the same page as you at all. And because the nature of unfolding relationships tends to involve some uncertainty from either party, that just makes this initial dance/'game' almost necessary, in some ways.

    So in my mind, I'm not thinking of deliberate control/deceit - just more what ends up happening, naturally, based on how human interactions tend to work.


    Re the OP -
    "Mind games work. if you are too available--you fail. If you're too easy--you fail. You have to be a challenge. You gotta show a guy that you have a life and it doesn't revolve around him. You're desirable and attractive so act like it. You call the shots so if you act like the boss you will get what you want. Girls who do whatever the guy wants them get played, girls who boss up dont. Let him miss you. You can't achieve that without playing mind games."
    I mean, I do think a lot of the things your friend says is desirable is actually TRUE. What I find silly is that if you're truly NOT independent and happy with your own life, etc, and pretend you are in order to reel the guy in (i.e. it actually IS a game and doesn't actually reflect you/your reality), while that might work in the short term, how in the world is it going to be useful for you in the long run? i.e. when the guy realizes you're none of those things and you're actually really insecure and clingy and want to be with him 24/7 and are helpless (I'm talking extremes here, obviously) and either gets rid of you or you end up in a very dissatisfying/resentful relationship down the road?
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #107
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    It happens a lot too when someone is afraid to be vulnerable. Then they can start pushing you away, and the funny thing is that if you abruptly pull away when they think they're pushing you away, it's suddenly, "OHAI WHERE DID YOU GO?" Unfortunately, being conscious of that *is* a mind game, but it's necessary with some people. This is NOT the same as pretending to be someone else, or luring people in just for the sake of luring them in.

    It's a careful push-pull thing, and it's done in the interest of getting closer to that person carefully rather than harming them, or harming yourself by being too vulnerable with someone who has walls.

    I mean, when someone tells me they have the Great Wall of China surrounding them but if/once I get in, I'm in, I know there's going to be some mindgames in the future, like it or not...unless at that point I actively choose to not bother.

    And as many people have agreed or mentioned in their experience, being too forward or too open just does not seem to work, because it can look needy or desperate, not refreshingly honest. Or in some cases it just gets you friend zoned.

  8. #108
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    hehe, yeah, often when some one mentions a giant wall, that in and of itself is THE mind game, at least in my experience, those people are the ones that just want to see people make the effort to scale the wall, then by the time you get to the top of it, your like "wtf, that wall was only like 5 feet tall, they sure played that up a lot" LOL... I dont use walls myself, I use shells, cause im a hermit crab...j/k... im in a silly mood today, hehehehehe
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  9. #109
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    A wall; it protects but it can imprison.

    Scale it and you might be trapped as well. It may also lead to another wall or a pit trap or a further passages including walking the gauntlet by the castle guards.

    There may be comfort. Pleasure. Cotton candy and roller coasters on the other side.

    It may even allow you to drop your own walls while within its protective status allowing you to look at sunsets, ocean views and mountain ranges in your own rear view mirror.

    It may keep out the riff raft or even the competition thus allowing added security.

    Instead of scaling and simply falling into the abyss on the other side of the wall...consider adding construction, decoration and even a little harmless graffiti, a bite and shiatsu both in your ingress and egress.

    He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors.'
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    Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
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  10. #110
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    I like cows
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

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