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  1. #51
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    The Big 5 Neuroticism scale doesn't correlate to any of the MBTI dichotomies... so I think it's orthogonal to MBTI type. Also, exactly what one means by "neurotic" varies... the facets of neuroticism for Big 5 (at least on the Revised NEO Personality Inventory) are things like: Anxiety, Hostility, Depression, Self-Consciousness, Impulsiveness, and Vulnerability to Stress. So I could see different MBTI types correlating to different facets of neuroticism.

    For example, my overall level of neuroticism isn't too high, but I score highest on self-consiousness and depression (although I haven't been depressed in years).
    I read somewhere that it neuroticism correlates slightly with feeling but somewhere else that it doesn't correlate with any MBTI dichotomy.

    I'd say I'm average on neuroticism. Tests vary from somewhat below average to slightly above average. I think my mood slightly affects the score. If I'm in a bad mood or particularly stressed, the neuroticism will come out somewhat higher.

    Going by the subscales I'd say high on anxiety and self-consciousness, average on depression and vulnerability, and low on anger and immoderation. However one big five test I took had me low on five of the six subscales, including self-consciousness, with the other subscale being average. If anyone truly knows me well, they know that I'm quite self-conscious and anxiety prone. Sure I was flattered by the result, but it didn't quite fit me.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I read somewhere that there IS an upside to neuroticism. I can't remember what is was though... . Strangely enough, I want to say it had something to do with productivity in chaotic environments, due to interpreting the good/bad of situations more readily .
    A problem with the big five is it implies that one side of the dichotomy is more desirable than the other. Its better to be calm than neurotic. Its also better to be extraverted, agreeable, conscientious, and open to experience.

    I think a moderate level of neuroticism can actually be beneficial. They are the ones that are more likely to notice that things aren't quite right and in some cases get worked up about it. Getting worked up isn't necessarily bad because it can lead to positive change if its channeled constructively. Someone who is *too* calm may be more likely to deny that things are or could be problematic, which can just cause further trouble down the road.
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  2. #52
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Ah, I found it! It was from the bbc Big 5 test: https://www.bbc.co.uk/labuk/experiments/personality/

    Quote Originally Posted by bbc.co.uk
    Some scientists have suggested that Neuroticism was beneficial in evolutionary terms. Early man may have found it advantageous to live in a population where certain individuals had a high sensitivity to threats to the group's survival.

    There is evidence to suggest that Neuroticism, when combined with high scores in personality traits such as Conscientiousness, can result in a powerful work ethic and a will to succeed.
    I'd say that's similar to what I was remembering...a high sensitivity which moves one to adapt quickly and get stuff done. This actually directly contradicts what other sources say about high neuroticism, which is coping less in chaotic and stressful situations because of being overwhelmed by bad feelings. Although most acknowledge that while high neurotics experience more lows that calm types, they don't necessarily experience less highs. What you have is someone is less neutral, not necessarily less happy. This is an important consideration for a later point I'll make below...

    For myself (as I score HIGH on neuroticism), the BBC explanation holds true. I find myself energized by panic & chaos, and hitting walls spurs creativity. It's almost like the significance these "lows" imparts moves me to act where I'd otherwise procrastinate. I actually don't stick my head in the sand & wallow in bad feeling. I run on the adrenaline of the panic, and can be extra creative (this is why I am soooo deadline-oriented).

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was correlation with enneagram 4 and neuroticism also, because e4s seek highs & lows in life as "inspiration", feeling they need them to create. When everything constantly feels significant (either distinctly good or bad), and the familiarity with deep "lows" can push one to avoid it, then such a person may act more to achieve a high, thus making them more productive (if channeled well of course). The above mentioned the pairing of neuroticism with conscientiousness (which correlates with Je), which certainly could result in good work ethic. Imagine it paired with openness as well - you could get someone very innovative.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    A problem with the big five is it implies that one side of the dichotomy is more desirable than the other. Its better to be calm than neurotic. Its also better to be extraverted, agreeable, conscientious, and open to experience.

    I think a moderate level of neuroticism can actually be beneficial. They are the ones that are more likely to notice that things aren't quite right and in some cases get worked up about it. Getting worked up isn't necessarily bad because it can lead to positive change if its channeled constructively. Someone who is *too* calm may be more likely to deny that things are or could be problematic, which can just cause further trouble down the road.
    This is pretty much on the same track. The idea that responding "dramatically" to something can spur action for good.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Ah, I found it! It was from the bbc Big 5 test: https://www.bbc.co.uk/labuk/experiments/personality/



    I'd say that's similar to what I was remembering...a high sensitivity which moves one to adapt quickly and get stuff done. This actually directly contradicts what other sources say about high neuroticism, which is coping less in chaotic and stressful situations because of being overwhelmed by bad feelings. Although most acknowledge that while high neurotics experience more lows that calm types, they don't necessarily experience less highs. What you have is someone is less neutral, not necessarily less happy. This is an important consideration for a later point I'll make below...

    For myself (as I score HIGH on neuroticism), the BBC explanation holds true. I find myself energized by panic & chaos, and hitting walls spurs creativity. It's almost like the significance these "lows" imparts moves me to act where I'd otherwise procrastinate. I actually don't stick my head in the sand & wallow in bad feeling. I run on the adrenaline of the panic, and can be extra creative (this is why I am soooo deadline-oriented).

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was correlation with enneagram 4 and neuroticism also, because e4s seek highs & lows in life as "inspiration", feeling they need them to create.
    .
    I took the enneagram test recently and came out as a 4 with the next highest score a 9. I relate to what you've said. I would say I'm also high in the neurotic category, though I'm not neurotic about my body but I'm extremely sensitive to my environment and interactions with others. I'm a writer as well (creative writer) and thrive on deadlines and structure. Euphoria or an agitated state can drive me to an incredible productive period of writing. The creative state is a high onto itself so I create dissonance in my life to fuel the thing that gives me the most pleasure and joy. Most people would probably feel that a state of agitation isn't desirable. For me, it's almost a way of life...but it's not unpleasant. It's a desire for expression, whether it be with people, animals, the world at large. It's a magnanimous feeling. I also need to be physicaly active, and have been doing one sport or another (swimming, hiking, and running) since I was a girl. It's true for me as well that if my life is too bland or routine (my job can be this way), then I need to create instability for myself and say, leave the job to strike out for something new, travel to a new place, anything that's stimulating. Without stimulation, whether its created internally or sought out in life experiences, I wither. I don't stay in a low place for long, though.

  4. #54
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Ah, I found it! It was from the bbc Big 5 test: https://www.bbc.co.uk/labuk/experiments/personality/
    Nice! Thanks for tracking that down!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'd say that's similar to what I was remembering...a high sensitivity which moves one to adapt quickly and get stuff done. This actually directly contradicts what other sources say about high neuroticism, which is coping less in chaotic and stressful situations because of being overwhelmed by bad feelings. Although most acknowledge that while high neurotics experience more lows that calm types, they don't necessarily experience less highs. What you have is someone is less neutral, not necessarily less happy. This is an important consideration for a later point I'll make below...
    At least one Big Five source I saw ascribed the highs to extraversion... which I thought was a bit of a bummer.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    For myself (as I score HIGH on neuroticism), the BBC explanation holds true. I find myself energized by panic & chaos, and hitting walls spurs creativity. It's almost like the significance these "lows" imparts moves me to act where I'd otherwise procrastinate. I actually don't stick my head in the sand & wallow in bad feeling. I run on the adrenaline of the panic, and can be extra creative (this is why I am soooo deadline-oriented).
    I thought that was more of a Perceiver thing in general to be a bit adrenaline driven (rather than just schedule driven). I kind of like it when there is some crisis at work, partially because you get to see new sides of people and relate to one another in a different kind of way. I also enjoy the intensity and purity of going "all out" on something for a period of time (even though the rest of my life can suffer during those periods).

    I could certainly neuroticism and e4 being correlated. It's too bad there isn't a good enneagram instrument to base statistical analysis on.

    Here's a Psychology Today article (yeah, yeah, I know... very pop psych) that mentions a couple of upsides of neuroticism. They are fairly meager, though.

  5. #55
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    A problem with the big five is it implies that one side of the dichotomy is more desirable than the other. Its better to be calm than neurotic. Its also better to be extraverted, agreeable, conscientious, and open to experience.
    yes, exactly. what good does that do anyone? it's useless. it's just "good" because someone decided so. perhaps because it's more adaptive to current society, not because of any actual inherent advantages. and even if it is, what good does that do anyone? just fyi, you're the worst type!

    pisses me off, really. much more useful to have a personality measurement like the MBTI or enneagram that shows you both some strengths and some weaknesses and gives you strategies for making the most of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    Quote Originally Posted by bbc.co.uk
    There is evidence to suggest that Neuroticism, when combined with high scores in personality traits such as Conscientiousness, can result in a powerful work ethic and a will to succeed.
    huh, that's cool. i believe that.

  6. #56
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    At least one Big Five source I saw ascribed the highs to extraversion... which I thought was a bit of a bummer.
    I think this is the result of expressiveness. Introverts just seem less impassioned. It's hilarious how people who are acquaintances think I have some zen thing going on, commenting on how I am always calm, must never get depressed, seem confident, etc. It's just because I am not that expressive (although my family would say differently....but they see another side, the temperamental, neurotic oen). Another anecdote: My teenage INTJ cousin is the stereotypical robot. I took him to an amusement a few years ago when he visited for the summer and he had no reaction to anything the whole time and barely said 5 words. Come to find out later that was the highlight of his trip and he had a blast. His excitement simply was not expressed, so to any onlooker, he did not seem happy at all (in fact, he even looked a bit pouty).

    IDK, I guess my point here is I wouldn't be surprised if they're measuring "highs" or happy feelings in extrovert ways. Sometimes what gets the introvert off sounds dull & depressing to the extrovert.... I think introverts can even be convinced something is wrong with them for not responding in the same ways to the same stimuli.

    I thought that was more of a Perceiver thing in general to be a bit adrenaline driven (rather than just schedule driven). I kind of like it when there is some crisis at work, partially because you get to see new sides of people and relate to one another in a different kind of way. I also enjoy the intensity and purity of going "all out" on something for a period of time (even though the rest of my life can suffer during those periods).
    I think it can be related to P also, but it has less to do with highs & lows of emotions then. I think then it's more of how time is viewed & avoiding closure until mandatory.
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 03-22-2011 at 01:28 AM. Reason: typo
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    IDK, I guess my point here is I wouldn't be surprised if they're measuring "highs" or happy feelings in extrovert ways. Sometimes what gets the introvert off sounds dull & depressing to the extrovert.... I think introverts can even be convinced something is wrong with them for not responding in the same ways to the same stimuli.
    Yes. I've always assumed that dance clubs and karaoke were better suited for extroverts and sensors, but I know there are some introverts who enjoy it. I find most social hotspots understimulating and boring.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think this is the result of expressiveness. Introverts just seem more impassioned. It's hilarious how people who are acquaintances think I have some zen thing going on, commenting on how I am always calm, must never get depressed, seem confident, etc. It's just because I am not that expressive (although my family would say differently....but they see another side, the temperamental, neurotic oen). Another anecdote: My teenage INTJ cousin is the stereotypical robot. I took him to an amusement a few years ago when he visited for the summer and he had no reaction to anything the whole time and barely said 5 words. Come to find out later that was the highlight of his trip and he had a blast. His excitement simply was not expressed, so to any onlooker, he did not seem happy at all (in fact, he even looked a bit pouty).

    IDK, I guess my point here is I wouldn't be surprised if they're measuring "highs" or happy feelings in extrovert ways. Sometimes what gets the introvert off sounds dull & depressing to the extrovert.... I think introverts can even be convinced something is wrong with them for not responding in the same ways to the same stimuli.



    I think it can be related to P also, but it has less to do with highs & lows of emotions then. I think then it's more of how time is viewed & avoiding closure until mandatory.
    Yup, this is interesting. I'm sure that I seem pretty calm to most people. I've had people say that I appear so calm and collected (the Zen thing) but in fact inside, I feel just the opposite. I don't show it at all. I know other friends who are the same and whom I know are going bonkers inside. It's taken me a while to understand that about them, though (one in particular). The more I feel, the less I show. When I'm impassioned and show it, the outburst usually doesn't last long. Some have thought that I'm an extravert (my brother, who is an extravert) because I'll suddenly become very extraverted. But the intensity I feel, it's not related to extraversion. Writing is an introverted activity. The enthusiasm all ends up there (if I'm lucky).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mask Manifest View Post
    Yes. I've always assumed that dance clubs and karaoke were better suited for extroverts and sensors, but I know there are some introverts who enjoy it. I find most social hotspots understimulating and boring.
    I also get bored with what others find stimulating (dance clubs especially). It's too much noise and overstimulating. I usually want to go somewhere quiet. I love being out in nature and that's always a solace for me. That's stimulating for me in a good way: there's always something going on in its own quiet way. I love theater and concerts, though. But the audience is involved and listening so it's a different dynamic.

  10. #60
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post


    the other thing is, sometimes i think that Fe doms will take care of things that i really don't need someone taking care of for me, but they're not there to support me when i need support. like, when i'm having a hard time emotionally, what i need is someone to sit with me and empathize and just be accepting. ime (experience with mom, several close friends), Fe doms really don't like doing this. they find it useless, superfluous. the other thing i notice with NFJs is that there's often a barrier of superiority when they're helping. there's a tangible feeling of "i am the helper, you are the helped", instead of a more equal "we are both hurt persons and it's my turn to help you now". which is not to say i don't love ENFJs. i have watched over and over again the ENFJs i know do incredibly selfless things. they'll devote themselves to mentoring someone, get up and out at 3 in the morning to help someone in distress, clear their schedule for the evening to make sure that someone's going to be all right. it's beautiful.

    and the way i care for people... i'll sit with them for hours and talk if that's what they need. make them presents, write them letters, help them figure out what to do next. i'll drive them across five states in the middle of the night, if that's what they need. i will do just about anything for someone i love. but it's especially when i'm passionately discussing something that i can't deal with others' needs... the problem is that Fi is attuned to inner emotions, and when my feelings are overwhelming, i can't pick up on others' very well.


    true, and true. whatever enneatype i am, i come off as Fe IRL, apparently. in the forums it's easier to see the difference. i think that's part of why i get along better in general IRL with FJs than with fellow NFPs.
    this is because Fi bonds more on a symbiotic level. Fe attaches a particular social role and dynamic to a relationship (helper/victim, mother/child etc). Fi bonds basically the same way with a child, an old woman or even a dog. there is no expection of reciprocation or dominance, it's just there. this is one reason why FPs tend to get along so well with animals and children even when they're very old. there is a kind of mutual respect and honor in an Fi bond that is very different from the more group dynamic oriented Fe.

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