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  1. #21
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    ...but do you ever feel like the people who do behave that way are the ones who get ahead in life? Perhaps because others know that they'll make THEIR lives a misery if they don't assist the drama queen? On my bitter days, I wonder

    I do find it difficult to find a middle ground between being a doormat and being a high-maintenance bitch, I think. Though I was genuinely a doormat when I was a bit younger (like when I was first out on my own) and gradually over the years I have become less so. Still, part of the problem is that there tends to be a part of me that thinks, if I assert myself "oh, I'm just being mean now". And some people, probably the users, are happy to encourage you to feel that way.
    They don't want you to notice they are disrespecting you. If you're preoccupied with wondering how mean something sounded, how can you? I do agree a lot of this comes with age. It's awfully hard for the ones who care about you to watch because we are thinking NO! I have to protect you. That's my job because you can't for yourself. That doesn't help the NF's. That's not any better than the fucks who blatantly disrespect you either. I think the fact that you recognize it is the best step. Even if you have to tell the NT's to STFU..don't worry, we won't take that personally.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  2. #22
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    ...but do you ever feel like the people who do behave that way are the ones who get ahead in life? Perhaps because others know that they'll make THEIR lives a misery if they don't assist the drama queen? On my bitter days, I wonder

    I do find it difficult to find a middle ground between being a doormat and being a high-maintenance bitch, I think. Though I was genuinely a doormat when I was a bit younger (like when I was first out on my own) and gradually over the years I have become less so. Still, part of the problem is that there tends to be a part of me that thinks, if I assert myself "oh, I'm just being mean now". And some people, probably the users, are happy to encourage you to feel that way.
    girl yes.... I have. and sometimes I still do. but then I realize more often than not that by being patient, I get ahead. And I like my way a lot better than having to do cartwheels, throw confetti, and cuss people out. It has taken a lot of adjustment though.

    I think an INFJ problem is always seeking that balance with people. There are some situations where you just have to be a high-maintenance mean bitch. The times I've decided to be that way were after periods of reflection, and I have yet to regret the times I've chosen to go that route.. What I have found is after experiencing this once or twice, it is less likely to happen because I can see the signs almost immediately like, "Oh this shit ain't gonna work out. I'm just gonna keep it moving."

    And you are very right (from my perspective anyway) about the users. They know you want to be there, and they know everyone else is tired of their shit and/or afraid to stand up to them, so they pick the person they think is oblivious. Sometimes I know a person is using me, but I just want to be very sure, and I'm not really sure at all if I'm being used. I don't like drawing unfounded conclusions about folks, because I am one to think that most people are individuals acting of their own accord. On a contradictory note: the older I get, the less I think this is true, and the more I think most people are clones of others, or media, or whatever else is "hot in the streets".

  3. #23
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    I agree with cascadeco that it differs from INFJ to INFJ. I can definitely relate to the OP but I have also gotten pretty good over the years at setting boundaries and not letting "unworthy" people invade my space and it probably helps that I am sp/sx. (I am still not very good at making my needs known though.) When I was younger I had too many friendships where I was always listening while the other person didn't show any interest in me at all and I have come to a point where I don't let these kind of friendships develop at all or if a relationship with an emotional vampire already exists and can't be avoided I will be very reserved towards them and keep them at an arm's length. I just don't have the time nor desire to be somebody's doormat.

  4. #24
    Peaced Quay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Even if you have to tell the NT's to STFU..don't worry, we won't take that personally.
    How does one kindly tell an NF to STFU without all the drama? heh heh

  5. #25
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Nice job fidelia, ceecee, et al! Everything that you all said has been ringing true for me, based on all the INFJs I know. Literally every confirmed INFJ I have ever met has had the exact trouble in the OP, and it's all because, like silkroad said a bit ago, they have issues finding middle ground between being a doormat and being overly aggressive with people. In other words... all the advice I could have given, has already been given.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  6. #26
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think the problem is more within ourselves and our sense of not wanting to be unfair, hasty or miserable rather than the actual boundary setting. It's also that we tend to make a lot of little distinctions between different behaviours, so it is harder to be sure if the person fits within the category of rude user or whether they belong in "person who'd be fine with some support", "person who is temporarily self-centred", "person whom we've known a long time and is not upsetting our lives that much even though they are not giving equally", "person whom I don't really have that much to do with so can tolerate", "person who needs some straight talk but could straighten out", "person who is high drama, low change" etc etc ad nauseum.

    I think as time is going on I've gotten less tolerant. It's not that INFJs are either oblivious or doormats. It's just that they really want to be sure within themselves and have exhausted all possibilities within their control before giving up. I've had to learn that in some cases, this is entirely unnecessary and is using up much more of my resources than is warranted. Once the decision is made within me, I don't find it too hard to enforce it. It's the internal part that I've found has tripped me up in the past.

  7. #27
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    From the perspective of an INTP, I very much agree with this. I have lots of feelings that I dare not show to others, and apart from just keeping them hidden, I struggle with accepting them within myself. People get the impression that I don't care about them, when that isn't the case. People assume I don't care about something as much as they do, when I most certainly do. My preferences are often overlooked because I choose not to be as passionate about them as others.

    I definitely empathize with you INFJs. Y'all are my favorite.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #28
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quay View Post
    How does one kindly tell an NF to STFU without all the drama? heh heh
    I cover my ENFJ's mouth with my hand and threaten duct tape.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post


    I think the problem is more within ourselves and our sense of not wanting to be unfair, hasty or miserable rather than the actual boundary setting. It's also that we tend to make a lot of little distinctions between different behaviours, so it is harder to be sure if the person fits within the category of rude user or whether they belong in "person who'd be fine with some support", "person who is temporarily self-centred", "person whom we've known a long time and is not upsetting our lives that much even though they are not giving equally", "person whom I don't really have that much to do with so can tolerate", "person who needs some straight talk but could straighten out", "person who is high drama, low change" etc etc ad nauseum.

    I think as time is going on I've gotten less tolerant. It's not that INFJs are either oblivious or doormats. It's just that they really want to be sure within themselves and have exhausted all possibilities within their control before giving up. I've had to learn that in some cases, this is entirely unnecessary and is using up much more of my resources than is warranted. Once the decision is made within me, I don't find it too hard to enforce it. It's the internal part that I've found has tripped me up in the past.
    I agree with everything you said here, fidelia. And also the bolded part. To observers they think we're doormats or either oblivious to what is happening.

  10. #30
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    fidelia: It's just that they really want to be sure within themselves and have exhausted all possibilities within their control before giving up.
    This is EXACTLY me. I exhaust everything before I doorslam or leave a situation, and it leaves me liberated, in a way. I never look back. I know that I stayed longer than I should have, truly did my best to fix the situation, and exhausted every possible route. In the long term, I'd like to become more like you...

    fidelia: I've had to learn that in some cases, this is entirely unnecessary and is using up much more of my resources than is warranted.
    ...but for the short term, this is a silver lining.

    Lots of good thoughts here! More from me soon.

    And - yes - people who throw tantrums often get what they want, until the patient, giving people around them get tired of them OR they go somewhere else. But anger, tantrums, and patience can all be thought of as tools. For example, if I want to get what I want from a doctor who is refusing to treat my mother, then throwing a tantrum might work (this was on NPR this morning -- it worked). If I want my spouse to treat me differently, spend more time with me, demonstrate love more, then a tantrum or anger is absolutely NOT the way to go. Maybe kindly stating your common goals is better -- "I love spending time with you," vs. "What is wrong with you?"

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