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View Poll Results: What are you, NFs?

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  • Religious

    9 18.37%
  • Spiritual

    34 69.39%
  • Non-spiritual (only believes in science)

    6 12.24%
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  1. #81
    Another awesome member. Curator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    It is funny because in my own experience, it is my friends that are atheists that I notice demonstrating some of the most selfless, ‘spiritual’, emotionally intelligent behavior of all..
    I have unfortunately had a much different experience, within each side, the religious. spiritual, and Atheist people ive known, all groups seem to have about an equal representation of closed minded,empty, and even cruel people, the extremists of each group all seem like they are exactly the same... Ive noticed no appreciable difference between them... there are also equally awesome and amazingly kind and loving individuals ive met within each group as well... (im defining the 3 groups by how the people ive met define themselves, defined by a certain religion, define themselves as "spiritual" or define themselves as "Atheist"...) they can obviously overlap...
    You are not powerless, you just need to accept your power for what it is, a part of the whole, no one man can save the world, but you can be a light to those who envelope themselves in darkness, The candle that sparks the inferno.

  2. #82
    Junior Member tonygoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ultimawepun View Post
    So it's science's fault? What do you think motivates people to go to war?

    Science is just a tool.

    Anyway, fear probably motivates people to go to war, sometimes misplaced sometimes not.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    NO!

    1. Faith and science are quite distinct. The first deals with accepting something in the absence of evidence; the second, with accepting something because of the evidence. Anyone who claims "to believe in science" misspeaks, or is ignorant. One accepts established scientific theories based upon the evidence, or one seeks to disprove them, again based upon evidence. One's beliefs require no such evidence, though people usually (hopefully) have reasons for what they believe. This is the realm of values, intuitions, feelings, etc.

    2. Science makes no claims about questions outside its scope, such as: does God exist? what is the meaning of life? do we have souls? Any scientist who does is now touting religion/spirituality, and not science. Grave problems result when we try to use one discipline to address the concerns of the other. We must use the right tool for the job.
    I stopped reading at "NO!"


    I am sure you have a very wonderful and valid Idea , I just don't like your tone. I am not listening.

    No offense.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Again fascinating. Since if they are perceiving it , it is not then really not outside of their perception?. It's not perception at all that is lacking in that case, it's the ability to communicate something that is vague by it's very nature.

    I believe if you ask the universe questions it will answer. The problem is in asking the right questions. There are countless versions of this idea floating around out there from genies to the "Monkey's Paw".

    It's finding a metaphor or a symbol, a language to express it in that is concrete enough for everyone to grok it.
    This of course explains religion.

    The next questions would be.. Is my imagination perception?
    Because if it is. Then what if I start talking about things outside my conscious perception. What if.... I imagine God?
    I just meant anything it is possible to conscious of at this point in time. Honestly though, you lost me after your second sentence there (third if you include questions).

    I go "oh right, yeah okay, good for you. I'm going to go over there now," when that stuff starts coming. Not in an offensive, you shouldn't be like that, way, I simply lose interest when I see no reason for it to be true or important, or a reason to be emotionally invested in it (as is the case of fiction, or someone I love thinking it).

    I guess on the spiritual scale, I'm not at the bottom, but I'm pretty low down.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I just meant anything it is possible to conscious of at this point in time. Honestly though, you lost me after your second sentence there.

    I go "oh right, yeah okay, good for you. I'm going to go over there now," when that stuff starts coming.

    I guess on the spiritual scale, I'm not at the bottom, but I'm pretty low down.
    My apologies .. I confuse people , I confuse myself. I still think you are A-OK ..

  6. #86
    Junior Member tonygoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    Although there is wit and wisdom in this quote I am not sure I can connect how it "sums it all up"
    Could you elaborate?
    "Sums" may have been too strong a word. Maybe something like an enlightening statement would have been better.

    I believe we are awful quick to use the tools at our disposal, such as science, but less likely to find a solution based on the spiritual aspect of our natures where the right individual, such as a Martin Luther King, can make all the difference in the world.

  7. #87
    Member ultimawepun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonygoz View Post
    I believe we are awful quick to use the tools at our disposal, such as science, but less likely to find a solution based on the spiritual aspect of our natures where the right individual, such as a Martin Luther King, can make all the difference in the world.
    Instead from the spiritual aspect of our natures, do you think science can be a solution and not just a tool? Maybe the scientific aspect of our natures?

  8. #88
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curator View Post
    I have unfortunately had a much different experience, within each side, the religious. spiritual, and Atheist people ive known, all groups seem to have about an equal representation of closed minded,empty, and even cruel people, the extremists of each group all seem like they are exactly the same... Ive noticed no appreciable difference between them... there are also equally awesome and amazingly kind and loving individuals ive met within each group as well... (im defining the 3 groups by how the people ive met define themselves, defined by a certain religion, define themselves as "spiritual" or define themselves as "Atheist"...) they can obviously overlap...
    I totally understand what you are expressing.

    I am not exactly sure why my personal experience/observation is what it is. And I have never asked and/or discussed this with my friends that claim to be atheists. But I believe it has to do with the fact that they truly live in the ‘here & now’ as, for them, there is no ‘forevermore’. They do the very best with what they have in the moment…because in their minds they do not have the luxury of ‘future lives’ or ‘forgiveness’. And I notice that they take on a lot of responsibility and immediate action which I truly admire. Like with the environment and other causes like ‘missing and exploited children’. I honestly get the sense that because there are no ‘outside forces’ in their minds that are going to step in…and/or they do not believe in such things as ‘everything happens for a reason’…they deal very much in, again, the ‘here & now’. Like…there is no tomorrow. We must make things right today.

    I feel this goes back to what Marm said in the beginning. That atheism can be considered ‘spiritual’. And I think this is the case with the atheists in my life. Just because they are not spiritual does not mean they do not believe life to be important. And each human a great gift.

    Not to say that all atheists would be like this. There are assholes everywhere.

  9. #89
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    NO!

    1. Faith and science are quite distinct. The first deals with accepting something in the absence of evidence; the second, with accepting something because of the evidence. Anyone who claims "to believe in science" misspeaks, or is ignorant. One accepts established scientific theories based upon the evidence, or one seeks to disprove them, again based upon evidence. One's beliefs require no such evidence, though people usually (hopefully) have reasons for what they believe. This is the realm of values, intuitions, feelings, etc.

    2. Science makes no claims about questions outside its scope, such as: does God exist? what is the meaning of life? do we have souls? Any scientist who does is now touting religion/spirituality, and not science. Grave problems result when we try to use one discipline to address the concerns of the other. We must use the right tool for the job.
    Thank you so much for this post. I appreciate it. So true.
    One of the most important things to remember with regards to Science is that it doesn't seek to answer the question WHY. People will disagree because they mistake WHY with CAUSE...but it is exactly what you have said. We must use the right tool for the job. Science is a beautiful thing. I wish more people understood. You INTJ you.

  10. #90
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I go "oh right, yeah okay, good for you. I'm going to go over there now," when that stuff starts coming. Not in an offensive, you shouldn't be like that, way, I simply lose interest when I see no reason for it to be true or important, or a reason to be emotionally invested in it (as is the case of fiction, or someone I love thinking it).

    I guess on the spiritual scale, I'm not at the bottom, but I'm pretty low down.
    This sums up exactly how I usually feel when the topic of spirituality comes up. Most of it just doesn’t ring especially true for me or grab my interest personally. But I definitely have faith in more than ‘science’ in life.


    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    I feel this goes back to what Marm said in the beginning. That atheism can be considered ‘spiritual’. And I think this is the case with the atheists in my life. Just because they are not spiritual does not mean they do not believe life to be important. And each human a great gift.

    Not to say that all atheists would be like this. There are assholes everywhere.
    Yeah, I remember going to some event once where speakers from a few different religions gave a few statements about their hopes for the oncoming year. The atheist speaker focused on having faith in humanity- not to believe some higher power would give us strength and wisdom, but to believe humanity was strong enough in itself to make the right choices. The people I went with were somewhat puzzled by the fact that an atheist was even there, but as it turns out- he was the one whose statements resonated the most with me. He made it clear that he didn’t attribute benevolance to any higher power above/outside individual people, yet there was something distinctly ‘spiritual’ about it.

    At the same time, I’ve known people who claimed to be atheists who were super-jerks. I’m inclined to suspect it’s an appealing label for misanthropes who want to hate on religion.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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