Santosha
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while I agree that all data has to be considered I think you probably select the bits you want to believe in.
Perhaps *some* do, but I mentioned these things randomly because they are interesting studies, and not because I believe them to be neccissarily true. I'm agnostic.. which means I DONT believe there is enough proof available to know one way or the other.
You're not a judge and atheism isn't illegal
This was poorly conveyed on my behalf in haste. OFCOURSE i'm not a judge and it's not illegal. And I have no qualm with any friend, family member, etc.. being an atheist. I was referring specifically to my. future. partner. Which is someone who would probably hold to a higher standard in astleast the sense that they understand me, and I them. I could not understand how they could conclude that NOTHING exists beyond death, outside of logic, etc. If they had this view through some misunderstanding, some lame attempt to counter the religious extremists, some difficulty grasping that logic is not the end all, then I could forgive this *misguided conclusion*. But if they were a die hard atheist, and they beleived NOTHING exists outside of logic, and turned there head to any other possibility, i could not forgive such a *limitation of their mind.*
I think that vision of the 'reedeeming atheist' is probably more of an urban legend than anything else by the way. I always hear religious types talk about it but I have yet to see it happen or see any data backing it up. If anyone has any study on the topic it'd be cool.
An urband legend? So your saying that NO ONE has ever changed? I really hate to get into personal ex. because they mean nada. But this is a category that 4 very close people to me have fallen into. My grandfather and his 3 best friends. All ENTJ/INTJ/INTP. All atheists. All picked on the theists for years and years. Infact, my immediate family was so atheist oriented that If i dated a guy that was a believer they thought i was crazy. I have watched all of them age.. watched them develop and overcome various illnesses, watched them watch life, creation, etc.. watched ALL OF THEM become more open to the spiritual wonders.. and each of them now identifies as agnostic. No more crude intellectual nose thumbings to be had. Are they afraid of death as it nears? or have they lived enough to understand theres potential? who knows.
Yes, that's how I meant by double standards. Check the methodology of the studies you refer to before saying things like this please.
You made the ASSumption that these random ideas i threw out were some proof I was using for theism. They were not. I repeat, I am an agnostic. Yes if I was a theist picking on an atheist it would be quite the double standard. Much like the atheist picking on the theist eh? Neither KNOW.. but take an assuming stance. Both are equal in my book.
So, basically based on this I could claim anything as being true with no evidence. Unicorns and the Sauron and rings of power. Empirical evidence is something we use because it's testable and reliable. You don't believe in fairy tales BECAUSE of empirical evidence (i hope) so why does religion makes exception to that rule?
NO. Logic can not disprove something can it. Where did you get the idea that I'm saying logic is worthless? It has tremendous value. Its simply not the END ALL, and it certainly could not measure a god that exists outside the framework, could it? Unicorns could also exist outside the famework.. point being, logic cant touch on WHATS OUTSIDE THE FRAMEWORK.. so why would someone try to use logic as a tool for this?
And what is your alternative by the way?
If i had an alternative for logic Eck, I would probably be out there right now looking into intellectual property rights instead of arguing atheism on a typology forum with you =) I am not sure if there even needs to be an alternative to logic. I just don't believe its the end all to everything. Do you?
generally the 'void' etc people talk about when talking about the absence of the belief in a god is something that only seem to bother atheist in the imagination of theists.
In this case it was a void also recognized by the athiest, a very deep sadness and disconnect.. combined with overwhelming pressure for him to build a major legacy because he believed that someday that is all that will be left of him. He also did not embrace nature, the life cycle, etc. All was pointless to him.
Yes, again, there is absolutly no more data to back that up than there is to back up fairies, and I'll remind you that you seemed to welcome empirical evidence when it fits your views,
What exactly did you think my view was Eck? I think you assumed I was a theist, though it was never stated. I guess I am confused. =/
Perhaps *some* do, but I mentioned these things randomly because they are interesting studies, and not because I believe them to be neccissarily true. I'm agnostic.. which means I DONT believe there is enough proof available to know one way or the other.
You're not a judge and atheism isn't illegal
This was poorly conveyed on my behalf in haste. OFCOURSE i'm not a judge and it's not illegal. And I have no qualm with any friend, family member, etc.. being an atheist. I was referring specifically to my. future. partner. Which is someone who would probably hold to a higher standard in astleast the sense that they understand me, and I them. I could not understand how they could conclude that NOTHING exists beyond death, outside of logic, etc. If they had this view through some misunderstanding, some lame attempt to counter the religious extremists, some difficulty grasping that logic is not the end all, then I could forgive this *misguided conclusion*. But if they were a die hard atheist, and they beleived NOTHING exists outside of logic, and turned there head to any other possibility, i could not forgive such a *limitation of their mind.*
I think that vision of the 'reedeeming atheist' is probably more of an urban legend than anything else by the way. I always hear religious types talk about it but I have yet to see it happen or see any data backing it up. If anyone has any study on the topic it'd be cool.
An urband legend? So your saying that NO ONE has ever changed? I really hate to get into personal ex. because they mean nada. But this is a category that 4 very close people to me have fallen into. My grandfather and his 3 best friends. All ENTJ/INTJ/INTP. All atheists. All picked on the theists for years and years. Infact, my immediate family was so atheist oriented that If i dated a guy that was a believer they thought i was crazy. I have watched all of them age.. watched them develop and overcome various illnesses, watched them watch life, creation, etc.. watched ALL OF THEM become more open to the spiritual wonders.. and each of them now identifies as agnostic. No more crude intellectual nose thumbings to be had. Are they afraid of death as it nears? or have they lived enough to understand theres potential? who knows.
Yes, that's how I meant by double standards. Check the methodology of the studies you refer to before saying things like this please.
You made the ASSumption that these random ideas i threw out were some proof I was using for theism. They were not. I repeat, I am an agnostic. Yes if I was a theist picking on an atheist it would be quite the double standard. Much like the atheist picking on the theist eh? Neither KNOW.. but take an assuming stance. Both are equal in my book.
So, basically based on this I could claim anything as being true with no evidence. Unicorns and the Sauron and rings of power. Empirical evidence is something we use because it's testable and reliable. You don't believe in fairy tales BECAUSE of empirical evidence (i hope) so why does religion makes exception to that rule?
NO. Logic can not disprove something can it. Where did you get the idea that I'm saying logic is worthless? It has tremendous value. Its simply not the END ALL, and it certainly could not measure a god that exists outside the framework, could it? Unicorns could also exist outside the famework.. point being, logic cant touch on WHATS OUTSIDE THE FRAMEWORK.. so why would someone try to use logic as a tool for this?
And what is your alternative by the way?
If i had an alternative for logic Eck, I would probably be out there right now looking into intellectual property rights instead of arguing atheism on a typology forum with you =) I am not sure if there even needs to be an alternative to logic. I just don't believe its the end all to everything. Do you?
generally the 'void' etc people talk about when talking about the absence of the belief in a god is something that only seem to bother atheist in the imagination of theists.
In this case it was a void also recognized by the athiest, a very deep sadness and disconnect.. combined with overwhelming pressure for him to build a major legacy because he believed that someday that is all that will be left of him. He also did not embrace nature, the life cycle, etc. All was pointless to him.
Yes, again, there is absolutly no more data to back that up than there is to back up fairies, and I'll remind you that you seemed to welcome empirical evidence when it fits your views,
What exactly did you think my view was Eck? I think you assumed I was a theist, though it was never stated. I guess I am confused. =/
but I don't think I could viably marry one. in all honesty though, the Pagan religion sounds way more interesting and fun than Christianity. I would love to believe that there are magical animal spirits and such running around and that all those Fi vibes I get from everything were actually forms of tangible energy, but alas, I just can't see the viability.
