gotta warn you here, you've flipped the infamous ENFP angry switch
no, not really.
seriously though, i just want to present the ENFP viewpoint for some of these points because i think it's easy to see from just one side, and i would rather you (or others who are thinking the same way) not think so poorly of all ENFPs. i think that it's very easy for Ti and Fi to misunderstand and ignore one another, but we can probably learn a lot from one another.
i've personally really had to learn how to communicate with my INTP dad and brother, because i feel like we're kind of after the same thing (more info, Ne) but always speaking totally different languages (Ti and Fi). at first i thought they were just as dense as they thought i was! but over time (and especially upon learning about the MBTI) i've come to understand we are using totally different lenses to look at the same things - and if we can just get beyond those lenses, i think we can talk about the ideas in question much better, and have really enjoyable Ne-dom conversations (and more harmony in general).
First of all I need to say, that there are not many EFPs I like and respect, but nearly every ENTP I know has my respect for his/her character.
The core difference is the system of values. ENTPs have Ti-Fe and ENFPs Fi-Te. That makes a big difference.
yes, absolutely. my thoughts regarding this is that Fi is
very individual, which means that each EFP constructs their own personal value system. but Ti is less personal, even though it is an internal process too - Ti isn't intimately connected with identity (right?), but Fi is. and i also think that's why i think Fi dom/auxs are so sensitive. questioning of our decisions is felt somewhat as a questioning of our selves, because we put so much of our selves into each of our decisions.
While ENTP try to understand nearly everybody and everything, and while they use Fe as a really good tool to get deeper insights, the ENFPs just try to keep their own values active, and they use partially cruel methods because of their tertiary tool Te.
ENFPs also try to understand everybody and everything, just in a different way. our method of understanding others - Fi - is to relate our personal experiences with someone else's. i understand someone else's sadness after a death in the family because i have experienced a similar thing. so while it may seem like we are thinking of ourselves a lot, that's because it's our way of connecting with other people. when we connect to someone, it's like we give some of ourselves to them, and we internalize some of them in us. connecting with Fe is like giving a gift. connecting with Fi is more like exchanging possessions - with me giving mine first. they both make both people happier, but for the Fi connection to happen, i have to share some of myself first. when they are used with good intentions, i feel like Fi is very trusting, and Fe is very selfless. when they are used with bad intentions, both Fi and Fe are self-centered and manipulative.
also, ENFPs are certainly not known to be
gentle wielding Te in argument, but i wouldn't call it "cruel" - not mean and not evil. what i would call it is "blunt" - disregarding tact - which can seem cruel. on the other hand, the way ENTPs can use Fe can seem cruel to an ENFP too. it can seem like ENTPs don't really care about other people, and just use other people's emotions to get what they want.
one more thing - what you said about ENFPs wanting to "keep our values active"... that's true, in a way, but only can be held against us as much as maintaining logic can be held against you. my values are what i use to make decisions, so they are as important and relevant to me as logic is to you. but like i was saying before, Fi is very personalized - and for better or worse, Fi dom/aux have to think more about the
construction of the system we rely on, which is one of the reasons i think ENFPs are usually more introspective than ENTPs. but yes, i do things because they are important to me, just like you do things because they are the logical thing to do.
ENFPs give sympathy and antipathy more influence in their life, while ENTPs are more fair. That means, that ENTPs are kind to much people, and loyal to their friends. ENFPs decide faster, if they like someone or dislike him. If someone disagrees to them, they tend to attack them really hard, while ENTPs search a factual discussion.
let me point out that ENFPs usually
respect all people, even if we don't always like them - whereas you do not respect all people, much less like them. i think it would be hard to find anyone who would say that ENFPs do not treat most people kindly. we do. and we are also very loyal to our friends, in the sense that if we feel like they are being hurt, we will defend them. Fi is quick to "read" other people, and can sometimes judge wrongly. however, i have found that Fi is a very good lie detector. i know when someone is trying to cover something up in a self-serving way, and that is generally when i don't like them. i do know a couple ENFPs who are very immature and see things in very black-and-white "bad" and "good", but i don't think all - or even most - ENFPs are like that. the immature ENFPs also tend to be less likely to listen to others, in my opinion - but there are immature ENTPs who completely devalue feeling too.
also, it's not someone
disagreeing with me that i have a problem with. disagreeing is actually fine. if you don't like Harry Potter, i don't really care - though am probably curious why. i am more likely to be a little bit sad or annoyed if you tell me you don't like my shoes, because they are an outward expression of who i am, and saying you don't like them makes me think, just a tiny bit, that you don't like that part of who i am. but the real problem is when someone says or does something that is hurtful to me or the people i love, without a good reason. then i will confront (not
attack - unless they deny it), because i feel like they've badly hurt someone and need to know that. sometimes people, especially Thinkers, just don't realize how injurious to a person's sense of self they have been. logic is good and useful, but it can very easily ignore how it affects other people, even when used with tertiary Fe.
ENFP see their values in a clear view, and keep them until the bitter end. ENTPs are more flexible in this fact: If someone brings good arguments, they change their view. Yeah, they are searching for this arguments, because change give them opportunity to grow.
actually, two things...
one - ENFPs don't always really see their values that clearly. i have a few very deep values that are clear (all humans are inherently valuable and worthy of love), but other things are not so clear to me, like my thoughts on animal rights. i really enjoy talking about those with other people and change my opinions on it often. INFPs are actually more like what you've described than ENFPs, since they have Fi as their dominant process.
two - if someone makes good points and doesn't purposefully offend me in the process, i love to discuss things with them. like this post, for instance. i felt a little bit annoyed that you don't really respect ENFPs in general, but i don't think you meant that to attack me personally, or other ENFPs personally. i could just be saying angry things to you, but i see that it's much more pleasant and useful to both of use to have a more neutral discussion. still, to me, all of that discussion does not
have to be logical. it can be, sure, but it doesn't have to be logical for it to be meaningful and important, or to change my mind about things so that i can grow. a lot of things that are very meaningful to me and that have changed the way i think - poetry, artwork, music - are not very logical themselves.
There was a situation I were in. There was a huge seminar, 500 people. The leader was ENFP. Of course, there were some critical people, who question the content of the seminar. And when they asked (inclusive me), they asked in an objectively way. But the reaction of the seminar leader was everytime in the same way: He feels hurted, and attacked. This in a rhetoric way, which convince the others, that questions are not necessary. The questioners were socially excluded by this. This ENFP was the least empathic human being I know.
ENTPs I know like questions, because they give them the opportunity to show, that their view of life is reasonable. And they know, when it's time to criticize and when it's socially inacceptable. I cannot imagine, that any ENTP would knowingly say something to others, what will exclude them socially. It seems that ENFPs defend their values at all costs, and when this costs is a human live, they would do even this.
well, i think that ENFP should have known better, honestly. it was his choice to be involved in a logical discussion and he should have recognized the purpose of the questioning. and it was not kind of him to say something exclusionary.
but i suspect if you asked him about it, you would be surprised to find out that he didn't actually mean to hurt anyone - he probably felt like he was just protecting himself and his ideas. i imagine that, to him, the questioning felt like questioning of personal integrity, even though to Ti, it's obviously just checking out the idea. i feel this way when i argue sometimes - and i'll say hurtful things by accident in argument because i'm very emotional and Fi tends to point to ways to argue that aim at the
person, instead of their ideas. it's not because i want to hurt the person, but it takes a lot of energy and focus for a person with tertiary Te to stay 100% logical while arguing... logical debate is a T thing and we are much more inclined to talk about our feelings, but T dom/auxs don't really tend to listen to our points if we talk about feeling, so we have to use a lot of energy and use logic instead. that, i think, is some of the reason we are so quick and forceful, and not very well-refined, in our arguments.
All in all I would recapitulate my real-life experiences with Auxiliary Fi (yes, ESFPs are very similar in this way) in this way:
EXFP: fanatics
ENTP: diplomats
i'm sorry you've had that experience, and i hope that it's useful to see how things seem from the ENFP point of view.
