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  1. #11
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    So your Te has out-lined designated spots for when those users should be allowed to take the lead?
    Yes. Fi is the strength of Fi dom and auxes. It's my achilles heel. Would you go to a fish-mongers to get your produce?

  2. #12
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    Hum. This a complicated question. I'll give some examples. I fluctuate, even within myself. I don't really hold any dogma, more or less. There are people who believe in absolutes on both sides of the fence. Some NTs get very bent out of shape about Atheism, evolution or other "truths", just as they did about the Earth being flat or phlogiston.

    In the past, in a religious conversion, I might actually do a book burning of contrary books. Now Asimov can be on the shelf with the Bible and it doesn't bother me at all.

    Yet, many things have changed my point of view. It is open to new information.

    For one example, virtually my whole family thinks the MBTI is crap. I cannot convince them that it has any value. They have no interest. Yet, some of them hold firm to a religious belief. They won't take a 15 minute MBTI test, but they want me to set through a one hour service. Yet, I can see how all of this is good for them, but not for me.

    I'll give you an example of how my beliefs change. At one time I was pro-life. It was early, and I'd just converted to Chrisitanity. Also, I found out where the store was where I could buy all sort of Jesus t-shirts and Christian rock. I could really fit in; I cried about being to fit in and dress like the others. I thought, "These people love me. These people hug me."

    Well, I hung out with one of the guys there, and we went to visit his girl friend. I could see them whispering them in the next room. She was very sad. VERY hurt. I could see this. Later, in the car, I asked the guy, "So what was that all about?"

    He said, "Oh, female problems."

    About a year or two later, I was friends with her fiance. Her fiance told me that that boy had gotten her pregnant. What I'd actually witnessed was the incident where she told him she was pregnant. I remember how sad she was. I remember how upset.

    I still think abortion is not simply deleting tissue, like removing a tumor. I believe it causes great emotional effects. But I will not be pro-life anymore. I mean I do believe in life, but I will never speak to another woman about it. It's none of my business, nor do I think it is the business of anyone. Now, if you want to have store front nearby where she can discuss the adoption option or options with a trained counselor, that's fine, but I'm against confronting the woman. I'm against teens having to tell their parents they are having an abortion.

    That being said, much later I went to an accountability group for years with men who were actually suing an abortion clinic to allow them to build a prayer chapel above it. I did not agree with them doing this, but that doesn't mean I could not participate with these men spiritually. In fact, we went to churches and sang Gregorian Chant. We were sort of a singing group too.

    I don't know if this helps answer your question. Feel free to probe further.

  3. #13
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    So. Would you consider it a process? As in: If you are evaluating your surroundings constantly and marking off your list what fits and doesn't fit within yourself personally; you're considering all the possiblities until you've found that set of conditions that you don't believe should be crossed and then stick with those values?
    I don't think it's so much "marking off" things that don't fit as much as giving an evaluation of harmonizing/not-harmonizing (just like Fe wants people to be in harmony, Fi wants the values to hang together). Ideally, I want my actions to fit with my beliefs, and my beliefs to fit together with my core principles. So, if I believe it's wrong to treat others badly, that should be reflected in me not shoving old ladies out of the way on the sidewalk. In reality, I don't always live in harmony with all my beliefs, but I do tend to be very aware of where I've falling short (although sadly sometimes well after the fact).

    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Hm... Then how do two different Fi-users get along if they don't share the same values? Is it out of respect because you can tell that they worked rigorously to get to the answers they did? Doesn't Fi look for a universal aspect to beliefs, being extremely penatrative so wouldn't that mean that only one set of beliefs is true, while the others haven't dedicated enough time to searching? Yet it's said to be so personable and that each person molds it differently.
    I do think we start from the assumptions that others have worked out—or are working out as best they can—their values. While Fi tends to lean toward universal principles, it tends to be fairly tolerant (to a certain degree) of the specifics. For example, you'll see Fi doms and auxs come down really hard on people who have ill intent, but often cut people more slack if they meant well. Imagine you have two INTPs that are experts in their individual, arcane domains of expertise. Even if those two INTPs didn't have the depth of knowledge to truly validate each other's expertise, they still might grant respect based on what they can verify. Things like: "Does this person seem committed to truth and accuracy?" and "On the minor things I can evaluation about this person's reasoning, does it seem consistent?"

    Now, imagine that each NFP is an expert on the problem domain of his or her own life and values. How does one evaluate their expertise? It's incredibly difficult, but one can look for intent and consistency. Beyond that, one tends to assume that that person knows best. It's a bit like allowing others to decorate their houses the way they see fit... while the furnishings may not to your taste, you're not the one who lives there. And who's to say a contemporary style is better or worse than a traditional style?

    Even this kind of baseline respect and granting the benefit of a doubt breaks down at some point. There are certainly NFP Christians who think others are going to hell, or NFP atheists who think believers are idiots. I just think that Fi-doms and auxs tend to start from an assumption of the worth of another's opinions, and only withdraw it based on evidence to the contrary.

  4. #14
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Does having a good handle on this function allow you to understand and be firm in what you believe is truly 'good' and what is 'bad', or does it allow you to see the nuances that each case, where you have to decide, is its own seperate choice?
    At some point, I realized that "good" and "bad" were only matters of perspective, and don't really exist on a universal level. (Hey, even the death and destruction of a forest fire is crucial role in keeping a forest thriving long term... so whose to say that human genocide is a purely bad thing? I KID, I KID!!)

    I do find myself very adept at picking up the nuance of situations though, and I enjoy digging up the core principles that underlie ethics. If I've analyzed a situation enough, I will consider myself confident in my stance, even if the topic is inherently subjective.

    However, because Fi is so internalized, it's necessary to use other functions to avoid getting divorced from reality. Prolonged mental inbreeding of Fi concepts can lead to some pretty mutated babies, so external variety in the gene pool is a good thing.

  5. #15
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    This is a lot to sift through. Just wanted you to know I read these posts and I'll respond soon.

  6. #16
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    In reading, another thought came to mind. If you have two dom/aux Fi users and on a topic each holds an opposing view to the other who concedes, or what/who decides which one should concede? And one must concede, or be KILLED!!!!

    All ideas are welcome. Jenaphor

  7. #17
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Does having a good handle on this function allow you to understand and be firm in what you believe is truly 'good' and what is 'bad', or does it allow you to see the nuances that each case, where you have to decide, is its own seperate choice?
    Um, sort of, and um, sort of.

    Interestingly Te dom/aux tends to have more "certain" Fi. Cuz, see, it's all logically derived from empirical proof! No pesky emotions to confuse issues.

    Fi dom/aux has the opposite problem, often confused and overwhelmed by emotion and thus lacking the certainty.

    These are both the young/early versions. Te/Fi, over time, becomes less certain, less righteous, more mellow. Fi/Te becomes less timid, no longer confused or overwhelmed, more understanding, more resolute.

    Both paths converge on "wisdom", for lack of a better word. Te/Fi learns that "reason" is not always reasonable, that one must listen to one's heart. Fi/Te learns that "Fi" doesn't mean being emotionally reactive, but rather that one can be proactive, and shape one's decisions based on Fi understandings and Te logistics.

    It isn't about "good" or "bad" or "nuances." Those are just words that attempt to state the largely inexpressible conclusions arrived at by Fi.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #18
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    That was very helpful uumlau. I do wonder. In the early stages it looks like Te/Fi has a head start as they already have 'certainty', where does (if it does) the Fi/Te get a head start?

    edit. Unless it simply is that ENFP's start off less abrasive than their counter.

  9. #19
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    That was very helpful uumlau. I do wonder. In the early stages it looks like Te/Fi has a head start as they already have 'certainty', where does (if it does) the Fi/Te get a head start?
    Who says certainty is better? I'd say Te (early on) has more certainty externally, but Fi has more certainty internally. Why is one better than the other?

  10. #20
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I suppose measuring off of the ability to quickly take action was what I was doing, the INTJ would spur to action quicker perhaps accomplishing their goals, which are subjective unto themselves and may not be the best morally, but the difference that is made is seen as quickly as they take to action.

    I edited supporting the opposite side of the coin.

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