[INFJ] INFJ and the Military

[bgmINFP/J]

I have taken the MB test three times in 5 years and every time it has said INFJ/P so no foul. That's what I hate about the whole "idealist" thing. It makes our type seem weak and afraid of conflict. I was the captain of my High School football team and loved nothing more than hitting the other team as hard as I could. I wanted them to feel pain, especially when they hurt one of my teammates. It made me feel alive and, i hate to say, but extremely masculine. Then I went to college, got very interested and music and became a Jazz Drummer. This life was not satisfying to me. It was competitive, but not in a physical way which drove me crazy. I couldn't sit in a room and practice all day long while my body became pudgy and sedentary. I long for physical strength and confidence, and this is what draws me towards the military, in addition to my empathy for people who get walked on by violent controlling assholes. Do ANY other INFJ feel this way? I am a very compassionate and passionate guy, but if you mess with the people I love, I will f--- you up no questions asked. Where does this fit into all of this psychological INF-whatever stuff??

 

[chachamaru]

Almight Kiersey stated that INFJs deplore violence.

Socionics states that INFjs often cannot stand violence, conflict and graphic depiction of injuries.

If many of our great non-violent humanitarians have been INFJs (Gandhi, King, Mother Theresa)... this provides additional proof of this fact.

So... why would an INFJ become a warrior? That would be like an ESTJ becoming a hippie.

 

[Sniffles]

Almight Kiersey stated that INFJs deplore violence.

Socionics states that INFjs often cannot stand violence, conflict and graphic depiction of injuries.

If many of our great non-violent humanitarians have been INFJs (Gandhi, King, Mother Theresa)... this provides additional proof of this fact.

So... why would an INFJ become a warrior? That would be like an ESTJ becoming a hippie.

"The Way of the Warrior has been misunderstood. It is not a means to kill and destroy others. Those who seek to compete and better one another are making a terrible mistake. To smash, injure, or destroy is the worst thing a human being can do. The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."
-Morihei Ueshiba


Being a warrior doesn't mean one loves violence.

 

[chachamaru]

The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."
-Morihei Ueshiba

How does one be a soldier and hate violence? Wouldn't that person have to be a non-combatant?

 

[Sniffles]

How does one be a soldier and hate violence?

Simple. A soldier witnesses first-hand the horrors of war and violence. However, unlike a pacifist, he still believes that violence is justified in certain circumstances.

Wouldn't that person have to be a non-combatant?

No he wouldn't. In almost every warrior tradition, the emphasis is on violence only when violence is truely needed. This is because there's a clear realization the war and violence are horrible things and should only be a last resort. As Robert E. Lee famously said: "It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it."

 

[Quay]

That said - I've been down the path of the military before. I bought into the notion of being a patriot, serving my country, and I was even pretty okay with the idea of sacrificing myself if it meant protecting the ideas of "freedom" and "liberty." When it really came time to sell myself into it or walk away, I had to walk away. Being regarded as just a nine-digit number and a bar code set off alarm bells, and I felt like I had to sell myself and be something different in order to walk down that path. I couldn't let myself be part of something so cold. That aspect of it was terrible, but meeting different people - dozens of amazing people with amazing stories that I was able to interact with and become friends with was an incredible experience, and it really opened my eyes and killed the sense of cynicism I had had towards people up to that point. If you can look past the colossal, cold machine and focus on the interactions with people around you, I think an INFJ (or anyone!) could do really well in that environment.

this is EXACTLY my story! wow! I was MM3 in the USN. I don't talk much about it, but the experience saved my life in more ways than one.

 

[bgmINFP/J]

Doesn't some one have to stand up to defend the innocent? Sometimes the only way to do this is STOP them dead in their tracks. That is my goal. Not to torture or kill or maim, but to protect my family and the freedoms that we enjoy in our country. People who love violence intentionally kill the innocent to feed their lust for blood, and certainly there are many cases of US soldiers doing just that. But that is not who I am.

 

[KDude]

Yes, protecting the innocent is a good thing. I don't think you need to worry about that. Embracing violence as a way life however is far from idealism. There's some balance to be found between pacifism and bloodlust. An idealist, if anyone, will try finding it.

 

[chachamaru]

If someone abhors something, will they use it?

If the INFJ abhors violence, will the INFJ use it?

The INFJ abhors violence, therefore they will not use it.

A soldier is not a job that an INFJ will embrace. This often includes the use of violence, or at least the training of learning to use violence. This would upset INFJ sensibilities.

 

[KDude]

I think a good majority of INFJs abhor violence, but I don't think all of them contextualize it to the point of not making room for it. That's the same as condoning even worse forms of violence.

You also referenced Socionics INFjs - but they are actually "Fi-Ne". More along the lines of INFP - Except Socionics was created in Soviet Russia, during the 70s. Of course, they're going to observe a lot of meek people there, and then color the type that way. At one point in time, people were getting toilet paper "rations" in Russia. Most of these people probably lived in fear of not being able to wipe their butts. They're not going to speak up about anything. This is my [scholarly] opinion. Basically it wasn't a good environment to study typological theories.

 

[chachamaru]

I was also siting Keirsey. (spelling?)

 

[KDude]

I was also siting Keirsey. (spelling?)

Fair enough. I definitely don't think it's an easy question at least. And I think many are remarkable in swinging towards pacifism and seeing consequences far ahead that avoid conflict. I would never say "Yeah, sure, they're definitely into guns or something." But.. there's all kinds of other factors in human behavior that could provoke INFJ to tap into other sides of themselves as well. MBTI is not the only science (it's not even science) to factor in here. I mean, we're all basically striving for self-preservation and surivival, aren't we? Whether we're malicious or benevolent, there's always that factor in human (and animal) behavior. I'm having a hard time seeing how it could be nonexistent in certain types.

Even MLK Jr., who I think was probably INFJ -and a model for nonviolence.. made a strategic choice to go that way. Early on when he was just getting in the civil rights movement, he owned a gun for protection. He talked about getting rid of it, because it'd "look" bad in light of his cause and message. That was partly a conscious move on his part though. He had it in them at one point to think that owning a gun was OK.

 

[chachamaru]

Maybe that was his intuition tapping into something greater...

NPR's MLK program was beautiful this year...

 

[KDude]

Maybe that was his intuition tapping into something greater...

NPR's MLK program was beautiful this year...

Maybe..

I usually listen to NPR, but I missed that. I'll look it up

 

[chachamaru]

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132905796/dream-speech-writer-jones-reflects-on-king-jr

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132905796/dream-speech-writer-jones-reflects-on-king-jr

I cried at work.

I also cry at work when listening to my pastor's sermons.

 

[Arclight]

Jung himself said "Every person is the exception to the rule."

So while the odd INFJ or NF might enjoy a military life, the people who are making it sound run of the mill, need a reality check.

Carry on

 

[Nameless Hero]

I would agree that thriving in the military is hard, because the military cares so little about war. The professional soldier is a middle manager wearing camo. War is about vision, drive, inspiration, and energy. All of these are directed towards an external object - the enemy. But the middle manager is about known, routine methods. His focus is internal - towards rules. The enemy is unpredictable. Paperwork is predictable. There is a mismatch between real war and a peacetime military. Thus, many veterans have an ambivalent attitude towards the military.

But it is awesome. You will have a great time with your friends. NF's will do well in the junior ranks where the administrative focus is not as noticeable.

 

[Coriolis]

A few observations on the OP:

1. Any type can succeed and get something out of the military, IF they go into it with their eyes open, understanding that the environment may be quite a change from what they are used to, and understanding their strengths and weaknesses (potential incompatibilities) from the outset. You may have to be creative in being yourself and exercising your individuality, but it can be done. In fact, the types that are relatively rare in the military can offer it valuable skills and perspective (break the groupthink).

2. Going into the military isn't forever. Whether you enlist, or enter a commissioning program, your commitment is over in a few years. If it turned out to be really not for you, you now have some great experience (and experiences) to take elsewhere.

3. If you are interested in counseling, or feel you would do well in that occupation, you could do that in the military. There is certainly a demand for it, with all the trauma the troops experience on deployments and then trying to return their normal life stateside.

(FWIW, I have served in the military, though not gone overseas.)

 

[Sniffles]

If someone abhors something, will they use it?

If the INFJ abhors violence, will the INFJ use it?

The INFJ abhors violence, therefore they will not use it.

A soldier is not a job that an INFJ will embrace. This often includes the use of violence, or at least the training of learning to use violence. This would upset INFJ sensibilities.

Keep talking......keep talking.

Concerning Socionics, interesting how Field-Marshal Friedrich von Paulus, the German commander at Stalingrad, is classifed as INFj. Dostovesky and Solzhenitsyn were both INFJs and also served in the Russian military, and Solzhenitsyn proved himself a capable officer in WWII until his arrest.

 

[cascadeco]

If someone abhors something, will they use it?

If the INFJ abhors violence, will the INFJ use it?

The INFJ abhors violence, therefore they will not use it.

A soldier is not a job that an INFJ will embrace. This often includes the use of violence, or at least the training of learning to use violence. This would upset INFJ sensibilities.

Sorry, these sorts of statements/views of mbti are just silly.

You're picking up a nice little INFJ Keirsey/mbti stereotypical description and planting it on someone. The descriptions are just descriptions - they're archetypes, almost cartoons in some ways. People can deviate quite a lot from the stereotypes, particularly when you factor in life experiences as well as *personal values*/driving motivations and passions in life.

There's nothing about having a cognitive function set of NiFeTiSe that means they're incapable of being in the army, or finding it meaningful (it sounds like the OP has a very strong drive/'mission' and sees the army as a way to actualize some of these values/beliefs). Given larger goals / visions, and a belief that what one is doing is helping the larger picture and grander cause, all of the 'details' of violence may not offend the sensibilities of some INFJ's. I mean, there are a great number of F's - probably more than T's - who are the ones who are going to harden themselves to short-term losses because they're focused on what they see as a greater good (i.e. suicide bombers, leaders who actually commit atrocities on their people, anarchists, whatever. And btw, I'm by no means comparing the OP to these sorts, I'm just trying to point out that the INFJ's/ 'F's' abhor violence thing is kind of a dumb argument).

In any event - OP, if you're really driven to do this, you already have a pretty key ingredient in making it happen and finding it purposeful: the very fact that you're driven and passionate about it. I wouldn't worry about whether or not it fits what the descriptions say you're 'supposed' to be doing - in the end, it's what you think you want out of life and what will give you purpose/meaning/fulfillment. Is it a traditional INFJ career/role? Probably not. I myself wouldn't have the value set or ability/desire to do it . But that doesn't mean it's beyond something an INFJ could do. If you're going into it with open eyes, aware of the realities as well as difficulties given your personality and such, then you're off to a decent start. You may learn, if you do it, that it in fact is not what you thought and that you really can't stomach it; or, maybe it'll be your calling. Anyway... research, soul-search, and good luck!

PS - and by the way, I'm a Business Analyst/systems tester (although I have never really nailed down career, but this is how I'm making a living right now), one of my INFJ friends is an electrical engineer, another one does environmental ed at a zoo, and another is a Systems Analyst/has done misc jobs his entire life. None of us are counselors, in other words.