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Thread: Need Fi help!

  1. #1
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Default Need Fi help!

    Hi, folks. Here's a real-life issue I need help with. I have a bandmate who's an ENFP. When he took the test, he came out ENTP, but the more interaction we've had as a band reveals that he's definitely Ne-Fi. Which explains why he clashes with our ENFJ lead singer in the way they approach things sometimes.

    Most of the time we all get along great, but there are times when we clash, and it hinders our ability to progress as a band the way we'd like to. Right now, we need him to do something specific. There are several songs on which he needs to watch dynamics--he'll run roughshod over the softer parts, or he won't play aggressively enough on certain heavier songs. He's a great guitarist, though, and we value him and tell him how great he is on a regular basis.

    He's very sensitive to criticism, though, and seems to stiffen a bit when he's asked to look at anything in a rehearsal situation. He tends to pout a bit. Which I could understand, if we were saying, "STOP EFFING THINGS UP!" But we're not...we ask him to work on that specific part, and we take care to phrase things carefully.

    BUT, I'm wondering if we maybe just don't know how to address him in a way that validates him in the language he'd like to hear. The ENFJ and I are Fe-ers, and we say things the way we'd like to hear them because we don't know any differently. So I'm wondering if changing the tone or the wording would help him not to feel like asking him to work on something is saying that he's not a great guitarist or something.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
    Something Witty

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    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Give one or two specific examples of the back & forth dialogue .. that would be a great help.

    Then I will try to do an Fi translation from my POV.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Okay, this is a quote from an email sent by ENFJ just a few minutes ago about tonight:

    Quote Originally Posted by ENFJ Singer
    everybody remember <Club Name> is all about low stage volume. we want to hear everybody, and def want to hear the leads. but everybody do what you can to remember they like it at a lower volume here. it will help me, too. i am hoarse and fighting it.

    we have fallen off the dynamics wagon again, too. lol. the beginning of stuff like "love alive" and "soul of the sea" and "magic man" verses are kinda harder than would be ideal. and "barracuda" and the big crash on "alone" are kinda less dramatic than they could be. can we tweak this a bit, maybe tonight?
    This is fairly typical for her when she's being diplomatic. She will try to couch things in terms of what needs to be done, trying not to call anyone out, even though she's hoping ENFP will take it to heart. Where things can get out of hand is when she's asked for the same things to be considered several times, and no progress has been made. Then she wants to lower the axe a bit, because she feels ignored or she feels like he's deliberately NOT doing it to get on her nerves. I'm honestly not sure what the truth is, there. It seems odd that he keeps doing the same things. But I do kind of feel like he has a blind spot when it comes to dynamics, for some reason.

    She can be pretty blunt and forceful when she's reached the end of her rope. But he can be pretty sensitive when everyone's still being polite. Our INTJ second guitarist won't really bring anything up to him because he feels like he doesn't know how to get a good result.

    I've found that I can get him to take things a little better if it's just one-on-one or when we're at a guitar rehearsal. But I also don't want to come to him with a litany of things that it seems like I've been saving up that he needs to fix, because I don't want him to feel like we've all been sitting around talking about all the crap he needs to do, and because it's not really my place. I will bring things up one at a time and when I feel like we're not capturing the spirit of the song, since I'm probably the biggest fan of this music.
    Something Witty

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    I'd say it sounds like he feels that he is not being allowed to express himself artistically and he purposely plays what you guys don't want, in protest.. Fi can be very passive aggressive.

    Ask him what his vision is. If he is a role player and has trouble accepting it, then this is the real issue.. If the band is supposed to be "Open" and everyone contributes, then maybe he feels his voice is not equal.
    Artistic egos are fragile things at the best of times.. Artists have visions about their art.
    A good band has 1 or 2 creative leaders and the rest are craftsmen.
    Maybe there is just too much creativity.. Too many cooks spoil the soup kind of thing??

  5. #5
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I'd say it sounds like he feels that he is not being allowed to express himself artistically and he purposely plays what you guys don't want, in protest.. Fi can be very passive aggressive.

    Ask him what his vision is. If he is a role player and has trouble accepting it, then this is the real issue.. If the band is supposed to be "Open" and everyone contributes, then maybe he feels his voice is not equal.
    Artistic egos are fragile things at the best of times.. Artists have visions about their art.
    A good band has 1 or 2 creative leaders and the rest are craftsmen.
    Maybe there is just too much creativity.. Too many cooks spoil the soup kind of thing??
    I think you're definitely on to something here. I think he probably does feel that way. He does come up with some very off-the-wall things that don't really fit in with the tone of the band, and even though we'd like to indulge everyone's creative side, sometimes the ideas are not a good fit. ENFJ is pretty knee-jerk about shutting things down sometimes, and though she's gotten better, she's not likely to completely change her spots. She's sometimes hard to work with because of her strong opinions, but she's VERY good, and she's worth the trouble. Everyone kind of accepts that. But it does lead to difficulties interpersonally with some of the guys. There are a couple of songs that we let him have free reign on, guitar-wise, but since we're a tribute, that's not a possibility in 98% of the songs we do, b/c the audience is expecting to hear a facsimile of the original, for the most part.

    The drummer (not sure of his type, but I think he's more Fi than Fe) is also feeling not-heard, I think, and his passive-aggression comes out in accepting or not accepting gigs. He'll be the lone hold-out just so his opinion will matter.

    ENFJ has taken plenty of gigs she didn't want to play because the rest of us wanted to, and she feels like he should, too. (Frankly, so do I.) I understand not feeling heard, but I'd rather people just tell me that, rather than gumming up the works when we're in the middle of getting something done.
    Something Witty

  6. #6
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    *If* that's Fi, then I don't indentify with that behavior at all. Stories like this remind me of the frustrations I encountered with a couple of older males (10-yrs older / INFP Fi & ISTP Fe). It was not my imagination that they were very sensitive, but because I valued their friendship, I tried several different approaches to meet them in the middle (and prevent future misunderstandings or bruised egos), to no avail. (The ISTP being the most sensitive in this way.) They behaved similarly, in the way of jumping to hasty wrong conclusions, not asking the important questions where my thoughts and feelings were concerned. Most annoying, was them not taking my words for face value (during conflict resolution), which could be due to older age, emotional baggage, and sticking with conclusions that 'look' or 'feel' familiar...? Both took destructive courses of action that were often verbal, thus *apparent*. I haven't read where your ENTP bandmate did that, which leaves me apprehensive about your conclusions. As for me, I'm flexible during conflicts, willing to hear out your fact-based criticisms, and together we'll work through it. I tell you this so you'll understand where I'm coming from and why I don't believe this has anything to do with Fi (or Fe). There are other considerations.

    I do NOT know what or if there is anything you can do for folks like this other than give it several tries at pulling them aside and gently talking to them so they *feel felt* and appreciated. If that doesn't work, then there may be a deeper-rooted emotional issue going on there with them that you can't fix. With folks that regularly make precarious emotionally-based decisions, it's been my experience that they'll continue as long as you allow it. You eventually need to push back and call them on their bullshi- in a direct manner to get them to stop or flake off. You're not doing them any favors by forever coddling them. The time comes when they must learn how to effectively communicate their issues, respect your response, and work as a team or go on with their bad selves (so that you may proceed onward and upward in peace).

    Team work is a give and take. As part of that, it sometimes requires giving and receiving negative feedback. If you're constantly doing a song & dance with their fragile ego, you got to stop and ask yourself, "is it worth it?"

  7. #7
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    Tallullah, I dunno how close you guys are but I'd suggest a heart to heart. And not a scheduled one, but just you going: 'hey, you ok? You seem to be struggling with this set-up a bit, so I thought I'd check '

    Let him rant. Make him feel heard. Nod. Validate his frustrations. Then see if you guys can come up with a way to compromise or effectively deal with the situation (break out that Te ). If you're even able to get a little bit of his stuff suggested to the group, he'll feel much more appreciated. Also, explain to him that the ENFJ isn't meaning to make him feel this way, but it's hard to keep a group together like that and make everyone feel like they're getting what they want out of it AND make it work in reality as well. Explain this to him. Let him know that she doesn't hold a specific grudge against him, but that it's just the way she rolls and it might be something she still has to work on, she's still very good for the group. Explain him your observations, without saying 'and this part is your responsibility!'. Let him draw those conclusions himself. He will. Suggest also some tactics as to how to improve the communication between him and the enfj (since you seem to get on with both )

    Just feeling like he's being heard will already do a lot (without being judged, while being taken seriously, without rolling eyes etc etc), normally
    Don't tell him to man up either..just review the facts with him and show you understand his frustrations at the restrictions of reality, and remind him that you're all struggling with that, and trying to work with that. It'll make him feel part of the group again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I think you're definitely on to something here. I think he probably does feel that way. He does come up with some very off-the-wall things that don't really fit in with the tone of the band, and even though we'd like to indulge everyone's creative side, sometimes the ideas are not a good fit. ENFJ is pretty knee-jerk about shutting things down sometimes, and though she's gotten better, she's not likely to completely change her spots. She's sometimes hard to work with because of her strong opinions, but she's VERY good, and she's worth the trouble. Everyone kind of accepts that. But it does lead to difficulties interpersonally with some of the guys. There are a couple of songs that we let him have free reign on, guitar-wise, but since we're a tribute, that's not a possibility in 98% of the songs we do, b/c the audience is expecting to hear a facsimile of the original, for the most part.

    The drummer (not sure of his type, but I think he's more Fi than Fe) is also feeling not-heard, I think, and his passive-aggression comes out in accepting or not accepting gigs. He'll be the lone hold-out just so his opinion will matter.

    ENFJ has taken plenty of gigs she didn't want to play because the rest of us wanted to, and she feels like he should, too. (Frankly, so do I.) I understand not feeling heard, but I'd rather people just tell me that, rather than gumming up the works when we're in the middle of getting something done.

    Bold; Exactly!!

    Now that I know it's a cover band , I think he is being ridiculous. Covers are not really open to interpretation, as you said, people expect a reasonable facsimile.
    If it was original material.. he might have a case.
    However in this instance.. All of you are craftsmen.. so his role should be obvious to him. His "vision" ought to be sounding as much like the band he is covering as much as possible.

    I am stumped as to what to do or say, except to explain his role, and remind him what a cover band does.
    If this doesn't work.. Maybe he needs his nappy changed?

  9. #9
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Tallullah, I dunno how close you guys are but I'd suggest a heart to heart. And not a scheduled one, but just you going: 'hey, you ok? You seem to be struggling with this set-up a bit, so I thought I'd check '

    Let him rant. Make him feel heard. Nod. Validate his frustrations. Then see if you guys can come up with a way to compromise or effectively deal with the situation (break out that Te ). If you're even able to get a little bit of his stuff suggested to the group, he'll feel much more appreciated. Also, explain to him that the ENFJ isn't meaning to make him feel this way, but it's hard to keep a group together like that and make everyone feel like they're getting what they want out of it AND make it work in reality as well. Explain this to him. Let him know that she doesn't hold a specific grudge against him, but that it's just the way she rolls and it might be something she still has to work on, she's still very good for the group. Explain him your observations, without saying 'and this part is your responsibility!'. Let him draw those conclusions himself. He will. Suggest also some tactics as to how to improve the communication between him and the enfj (since you seem to get on with both )

    Just feeling like he's being heard will already do a lot (without being judged, while being taken seriously, without rolling eyes etc etc), normally
    Don't tell him to man up either..just review the facts with him and show you understand his frustrations at the restrictions of reality, and remind him that you're all struggling with that, and trying to work with that. It'll make him feel part of the group again.
    This definitely seems like something he would respond to. I'll try it with him tonight if I get a chance! Thanks!

    Thanks, everyone, for your input, too. I think it's definitely a complicated situation, and there are sensitivities beyond what would befit the situation, because of the built-up frustrations. It's also a bit complicated with ENFP guy because he's always, always thinking about troubleshooting about some stuff, advertising the band, etc. He just likes generating ideas, so it's natural that because of the extreme output of them, there will be lots of them that are unusable. What's funny, too, is that, being aware of him being shot down a lot, I've made an effort for him to get his way on other things, and then he defers, saying he'll just let the band decide. He's so hard for me to read sometimes. He's a fabulous guy, though, and I really want to keep him happy.
    Something Witty

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    Leadership skillz 'lullah - you haz them.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

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