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Thread: Need Fi help!

  1. #61
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    unfortunately i have been in a group where a (tested, self-confirmed) NFJ leader just decided to ignore the people he didn't like. the problem with that is that the group no longer becomes a group about something, it becomes the NFJ's group. now, in the case of my group, i have to admit that i trusted the NFJ more readily than a lot of other members, and he tended to ignore people who i felt acted in ways that were detrimental to the group. however, i feel like i was okay with it because our conceptions of what the group should be were very similar. if i had different ideas, i may have been less content.
    Yeah, that's part of the problem on my end...her vision has been similar to my own, and she does think to ask my opinion, so I've probably had my head in the sand about a lot of this, unfortunately.

    i am very much in favor of group mission statements for this reason in groups whose leaders will inevitably change (for example, in college groups whose leaders will graduate). that keeps the group anchored to a mission agreed upon by all individuals up front, and delineates the boundaries for what can be questioned and what cannot. people can then latch onto that mission as they please - through Ni envisioning, Fi idealism, whatever - but there's something besides people defining what the group is about, which gives the group itself - as a whole - a lasting identity.
    Hmmm...I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess something about my Fe/Ti way of approaching things has never allowed me to see the value of a mission statement, but that makes a good deal of sense.

    though of course in the case of a band, which may not exist without certain members, that is less necessarily applicable.
    Basically? In my eyes, all of us are important, and equal members of the band. But without ENFJ, we don't have a band. Or at least, we don't have a band in its current incarnation. She's got exactly what we need, and she knows it (musically/talent-wise). She knows she could fire the drummer, or a guitarist, and we'd still have a band. It would be up on blocks for a while, but it would still exist. I think that's why she's having a bit of trouble with seeing the need to reach out to people. She knows, when it comes down to it, they're expendable--especially if she's had a personal conflict with them. It's toe the line or you're out. I'm really hoping to change that attitude for her. It will serve her in the long run.
    Something Witty

  2. #62
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, that's part of the problem on my end...her vision has been similar to my own, and she does think to ask my opinion, so I've probably had my head in the sand about a lot of this, unfortunately.
    eh, what can you do? it makes sense until you're on the opposite side. you're playing a huge beneficial part now, though.

    Hmmm...I hadn't thought about it that way. I guess something about my Fe/Ti way of approaching things has never allowed me to see the value of a mission statement, but that makes a good deal of sense.
    well, and until i got really involved in a few groups, i saw mission statements as kind of stupid. but then we had conflicts arise, and it was easy... we just went back to the core vision/values/identity of the group: if you have an idea that's within the mission statement (or rules, or objective, or whatever has been written down and agreed upon), we can talk about it, that's only fair. if you have ideas outside the statement, you're welcome to pursue those on your own, but if you can't not pursue them here, then you're welcome to leave.

    Basically? In my eyes, all of us are important, and equal members of the band. But without ENFJ, we don't have a band. Or at least, we don't have a band in its current incarnation. She's got exactly what we need, and she knows it (musically/talent-wise). She knows she could fire the drummer, or a guitarist, and we'd still have a band. It would be up on blocks for a while, but it would still exist. I think that's why she's having a bit of trouble with seeing the need to reach out to people. She knows, when it comes down to it, they're expendable--especially if she's had a personal conflict with them. It's toe the line or you're out. I'm really hoping to change that attitude for her. It will serve her in the long run.
    ah, yeah. that's the problem with ENFJs, to socially aware for their own good the way i see this is just basically that she has to have people to have a band. the likelihood of them agreeing with her, all the time, is very low. the more she can work with people, the easier it's going to be for her to achieve her vision - and let others participate in it, too. if she can't work with other people, there's kind of no sense in having a vision at all, because it's never going to hold up outside herself... and she'll be the only one ever fully, completely invested in it. let others take it on and personalize it, too, and the vision becomes a shared reality.

    i also suspect that, provided each member can get what they hoped out of the band, they will be more than happy to let the ENFJ continue to lead? i know personally i don't want to be the head leader, lol.

  3. #63
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    One thing that came to mind reading the ENFJ mail is that it isn't to him. I'd rather have something said to me personally while being reinforced as an important member of the team, that my input has value. In situations where people feel that it is more diplomatic to address the group as a whole and I can see that I am at fault in some way I start to go over my value and look for clarification in some way. It digs on my mind and can undermine my confidence.
    I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but this struck me immediately also. When someone addresses the group, but is really indirectly addressing you, I would know that it's really about me. It's easy for me to pick up on who it's really being directed to, and it feels passive-aggressive & manipulative. It even seems like the person is calling me out indirectly, which seems spineless and doesn't allow me to address it directly without seeming overly sensitive. It's the whole elephant in the room thing - everyone knows something, but it's being skirted around. That's rather humiliating when the thing everyone knows is that the group suggestion is really individual criticism for you.

    Often times, P types are said to be less direct....but that is only true in some aspects. In this case, to be take aside ALONE, and PRIVATELY spoke to about the issue directly seems preferable to me, and more respectful of feelings. The indirect part comes in phrasing. Instead of "we need to sound more X & the guitar should be more X", using questions to get the ENFP to come to the solution himself is better. "We need to sound more X - how can your guitar playing come closer to that?".

    ENFPs are often more team types than I am, but still, it's rather Fi to be independent, resisting authority. This is also a Ne issue, so stating the problem & asking questions that allow him to generate the possible solutions himself may make him feel more valued instead of just criticized, and may ease the knee-jerk reaction to someone acting as a perceived "authority". Ne types are innovative problem solvers, & Fi ideals result in high standards, so they often don't like to be confined to what another person dictates as best; when NFJs just offer one solution (which they've undoubtedly narrowed as the best in their mind; but it can seem close-minded & arrogant to others), it's annoying to the NFP because they see other ideas that would suit them personally better AND still solve the issue to meet the group needs. Speaking generally, the ENFP doesn't like to have their options narrowed for them, so its better to offer a solution as a possibility in a question form, and genuinely be open to their ideas as possible solutions. I see this as much as Ni/Ne issue as a Fi/Fe one, basically.

    Fi also easily narrows in on what is most significant in solving a problem, what is the core principle of the problem, etc. Sometimes Fe criticism & solutions feel, well, shallow. It's like they miss the deeper point, and in doing so, they are not qualified to criticize something they don't grasp. Again, use questions - ask WHY the ENFP chooses to play certain parts a certain way. That way you can find solutions that meet the core principle the ENFP is likely acting on.
    Last edited by OrangeAppled; 02-26-2011 at 05:30 PM. Reason: grammar
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #64
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    totally agree with ^^ all that. well said.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #65
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    totally agree with ^^ all that. well said.
    me too!!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    Sometimes Fe criticism & solutions feel, well, shallow.
    yes.

    not because Fe itself is shallow, but because Fi is concerned about internal value/meaning while Fe is concerned with external value/relationships. sometimes something can be fixed from the Fe perspective but look like a covered but untreated wound from the Fi perspective - the rift between people has been hidden, but because the cause of the rift has not been addressed, the proper healing can't take place. what this can result in is seemingly passive-aggressive behavior from the Fi person as they feel a dual sense of lack of efficacy (especially because Fe tends to direct) and resentment (especially since, like OA also pointed out, the Fe tactic of addressing one person's problem anonymously to a group also seems passive-aggressive to us, and there is a certain tendency to act in kind...).

    though of course to be fair, i'm sure that the ENFJ is having a hard time understanding why the ENFP is so selfish and rebellious, as well as so sensitive to criticism, and why he is not willing to just do what would be helpful to the band as a whole while playing the way he wants to play on his own time.

  6. #66
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I definitely see bits of what you're talking about in our situation, OA. ENFJ does have a tendency to settle on what she thinks is the best option, and then argue when other solutions some up. Not all the time, though--she's aware of how she can be sometimes (she is very self-aware sometimes, and not aware at all other times).

    Here's what we came up with last night. We had a really good, open discussion last night (ENFP, INTJ and me). First and foremost, they feel like I do--they do NOT want to break up the band over something so stupid (not the ENFP problem...read on). Larger than the problem I had originally posted about is the fact that this week, the drummer has been butting heads with ENFJ because he feels underappreciated. He is a good guy, but a bit of a redneck, and anything even approaching conflict with the ENFJ and him turns into a giant mushroom cloud of disaster. Basically, the cycle is, she doesn't really respect him, he puts up with it, but then he gets resentful after a while, he calls her out in a way that is guaranteed to make her see red, she wants vengeance. ANYWAY, ENFP didn't even know any of this was going on, and he immediately took the tactic of fixing this thing, no matter what. So we were really all on the same page, and I tried to ask them questions about how they ideally wanted to work, and what things they thought it would take to fix all these communication/working issues that keep cropping up.

    As far as the OP stuff, I could see firsthand that both ENFP and INTJ were genuinely frustrated at being given a list of things to correct AFTER the gig, when they feel like if we'd had practice, we wouldn't have "sucked" in the first place, which is what they read from those emails. Definitely a fair point. They really do hear those "morning after" emails as code for "you suck. fix it so you won't embarrass me again." As INTJ put it, "We're not trying to suck just to piss her off. Nobody wants to suck." (And they don't suck; they're great players. We just had a few teeny glitches that needed tightening up.) I agreed with him and also reassured him that in ENFJ's mind, she's being kind by not calling people out, and also, she kind of feels like it goes without saying that they're great players...and that those things she points out are, for her, the only things that need fixing out of a whole evening of solid playing. She's thinking about little things that can make us sound better as a whole. So, ideally, both sides need to be understood, and I'd really like to work out that whole process between them and ENFJ.

    They also (including drummer) feel like she has no right to complain about things if she's going to bow out of rehearsal. Turns out, ENFP had been TRYING to fix all those things, but he'd been matching it and comparing it to the original studio recording, feeling like he'd got it, and then get called out for it again. He said, "She's obviously hearing something differently than I am, and unless she's there to tell me when it's "right," I won't know, and I'll keep getting it wrong, because it sounds right to me." Which has to be infuriating. I knew what ENFJ was talking about, though, so I asked him to play it for me, and I'd do my best to help him figure out what she's wanting. Turns out, he was playing it absolutely perfectly when it wasn't plugged in. Perfect dynamics. Beautiful. But when he plugged in, he had a compressor effect that helped with sustain, but evened out the dynamics. BINGO. Then we figured out it sounded better when he played it fingerstyle instead of a pick. Totally solved the problem (we hope). We worked on the other songs, too. Hopefully that will be a show of good faith to ENFJ, and she'll be willing to meet them halfway. That will be a start toward opening the line of communication.

    Funnily enough, ENFP and INTJ are kind of willing to let ENFJ be ENFJ, and put up with her quirks most of the time. They said this voluntarily and outright. They know she's not likely to change, and talent-wise, she's worth it. They're willing to flex and flex often. I pointed out to them that that always works until it doesn't. We will still periodically have these blowouts unless we figure out a way to accommodate each other, and that includes ENFJ. The immediate problem is getting ENFJ to the point where she'd be willing to have a band meeting about this stuff. But they really are mostly concerned with keeping the band together.

    As far as the drummer situation, he doesn't know he's in the crosshairs. ENFP suggested we go to him and let him know what's going on, and that we get him to agree NOT to engage ENFJ directly over email at all. It ALWAYS explodes in his face. Drummer will have to be the bigger person, at least in the beginning, and that might be enough to soften ENFJ towards him. He may also have to come to terms with the fact that he's not ENFJ's favorite person, but the rest of us like and respect him. It's NOT ideal, but it might be reality. And they might eventually understand each other better with the pressure taken off.

    The immediate plan is kind of a Band-aid (ha!) situation to save the unit. But with the success (hopefully) from that, we'll have a standpoint to broach the subject of a band meeting to clear the air and come up with a healthier way of interacting--one that makes everyone feel like an equally valued member.
    Something Witty

  7. #67
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Well done!

    Note that most of this was addressed by people listening to each other, not MBTI. (Though to the extent MBTI helped people listen, it was useful.)
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #68
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Well done!

    Note that most of this was addressed by people listening to each other, not MBTI. (Though to the extent MBTI helped people listen, it was useful.)
    Yep! The MBTI stuff helped me realize what was going on, and that I needed to really listen, though! Otherwise, I'd probably have kept wondering why we were seeing things so differently, and getting frustrated.
    Something Witty

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I definitely see bits of what you're talking about in our situation, OA. ENFJ does have a tendency to settle on what she thinks is the best option, and then argue when other solutions some up. Not all the time, though--she's aware of how she can be sometimes (she is very self-aware sometimes, and not aware at all other times).

    Here's what we came up with last night. We had a really good, open discussion last night (ENFP, INTJ and me). First and foremost, they feel like I do--they do NOT want to break up the band over something so stupid (not the ENFP problem...read on). Larger than the problem I had originally posted about is the fact that this week, the drummer has been butting heads with ENFJ because he feels underappreciated. He is a good guy, but a bit of a redneck, and anything even approaching conflict with the ENFJ and him turns into a giant mushroom cloud of disaster. Basically, the cycle is, she doesn't really respect him, he puts up with it, but then he gets resentful after a while, he calls her out in a way that is guaranteed to make her see red, she wants vengeance. ANYWAY, ENFP didn't even know any of this was going on, and he immediately took the tactic of fixing this thing, no matter what. So we were really all on the same page, and I tried to ask them questions about how they ideally wanted to work, and what things they thought it would take to fix all these communication/working issues that keep cropping up.

    As far as the OP stuff, I could see firsthand that both ENFP and INTJ were genuinely frustrated at being given a list of things to correct AFTER the gig, when they feel like if we'd had practice, we wouldn't have "sucked" in the first place, which is what they read from those emails. Definitely a fair point. They really do hear those "morning after" emails as code for "you suck. fix it so you won't embarrass me again." As INTJ put it, "We're not trying to suck just to piss her off. Nobody wants to suck." (And they don't suck; they're great players. We just had a few teeny glitches that needed tightening up.) I agreed with him and also reassured him that in ENFJ's mind, she's being kind by not calling people out, and also, she kind of feels like it goes without saying that they're great players...and that those things she points out are, for her, the only things that need fixing out of a whole evening of solid playing. She's thinking about little things that can make us sound better as a whole. So, ideally, both sides need to be understood, and I'd really like to work out that whole process between them and ENFJ.

    They also (including drummer) feel like she has no right to complain about things if she's going to bow out of rehearsal. Turns out, ENFP had been TRYING to fix all those things, but he'd been matching it and comparing it to the original studio recording, feeling like he'd got it, and then get called out for it again. He said, "She's obviously hearing something differently than I am, and unless she's there to tell me when it's "right," I won't know, and I'll keep getting it wrong, because it sounds right to me." Which has to be infuriating. I knew what ENFJ was talking about, though, so I asked him to play it for me, and I'd do my best to help him figure out what she's wanting. Turns out, he was playing it absolutely perfectly when it wasn't plugged in. Perfect dynamics. Beautiful. But when he plugged in, he had a compressor effect that helped with sustain, but evened out the dynamics. BINGO. Then we figured out it sounded better when he played it fingerstyle instead of a pick. Totally solved the problem (we hope). We worked on the other songs, too. Hopefully that will be a show of good faith to ENFJ, and she'll be willing to meet them halfway. That will be a start toward opening the line of communication.

    Funnily enough, ENFP and INTJ are kind of willing to let ENFJ be ENFJ, and put up with her quirks most of the time. They said this voluntarily and outright. They know she's not likely to change, and talent-wise, she's worth it. They're willing to flex and flex often. I pointed out to them that that always works until it doesn't. We will still periodically have these blowouts unless we figure out a way to accommodate each other, and that includes ENFJ. The immediate problem is getting ENFJ to the point where she'd be willing to have a band meeting about this stuff. But they really are mostly concerned with keeping the band together.

    As far as the drummer situation, he doesn't know he's in the crosshairs. ENFP suggested we go to him and let him know what's going on, and that we get him to agree NOT to engage ENFJ directly over email at all. It ALWAYS explodes in his face. Drummer will have to be the bigger person, at least in the beginning, and that might be enough to soften ENFJ towards him. He may also have to come to terms with the fact that he's not ENFJ's favorite person, but the rest of us like and respect him. It's NOT ideal, but it might be reality. And they might eventually understand each other better with the pressure taken off.

    The immediate plan is kind of a Band-aid (ha!) situation to save the unit. But with the success (hopefully) from that, we'll have a standpoint to broach the subject of a band meeting to clear the air and come up with a healthier way of interacting--one that makes everyone feel like an equally valued member.
    It is clear how invested you all are, but especially you, in the success and authenticity of this band. Huge thumbs up girlfriend. Huge.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  10. #70
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    It is clear how invested you all are, but especially you, in the success and authenticity of this band. Huge thumbs up girlfriend. Huge.
    Thanks--we really are. That's one kind of cool thing to come out of this; it was really nice to have that shared moment last night of, "this isn't going anywhere. We're going to fight for it."
    Something Witty

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