User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 73

Thread: Need Fi help!

  1. #41
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,112

    Default

    I'm enjoying this thread and I feel like it will be of practical use to me. It feels kind of foreign, as what is rude to do in my world is actually appreciated in Fi worlds. Thanks to all of you who are offering your thoughts here.

  2. #42
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Affirmation or compliments are not disingenuous when they are sincere. And if one attempts a fake compliment just to open a door, it won't get very far, as even a very young Fi-er can tell the difference between a real compliment and a fake, unearned one.
    Sometimes, though, genuine compliments (especially those that are gushy) might be taken as unearned and therefore fake. Especially when there are threads floating around here about how it's difficult for some people to take compliments because their perfectionism never allows them to feel true.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    As for the "sandwich technique" I favor one where the negatives come out first, then followed with relevant positives. I don't think starting with a positive to be necessary when you end with a whole whack of positives.

    EDIT: The reason why is because I like to avoid the word "but" ... the sandwich often comes out as "You are doing a great job BUT blah blah blah negative don't hear anything else you say for the rest of the discussion". Starting with the challenge areas, then with affirmation, means you don't have to get involved with that dangerous word.

    BUT ... but nothing!
    I can see how that might work better in some cases, but if you're dealing with a really sensitive person (e.g., someone sensitive enough to be upset about indirect emails offering impersonal criticism), I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't just stop listening to you once they've heard the criticism part. I know that if I did that with my ESFP sister, she would automatically go on the defensive and nothing would get through to her ("...why are you attacking me right now? Waaaaaah".) It's happened before.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is true to a degree, that Fi can tell the difference between wheat bread and white bread "sandwiches," and Tallulah will need to watch out for that. The main way to do it is to keep it simple and concrete. A vague, "I really value you," will sound fake without either a concrete example or exactly the right tone of voice. To make it concrete, just mention a particular song/piece where his playing shines; the concreteness makes it obvious that you're paying attention to his contribution, and thus value him, and thus any criticism is along the lines of, "You're really good on this piece, so what's missing from your playing on this other one?"
    Yeah, I imagine you'd need to "prove" your compliment for it to be taken seriously, especially if the person is already the type that tends to beat himself up.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Also, it helps that Tallulah is there in person, and really does like him want to help, and for the most part, that will come through as "integrity." So it's more a matter of being aware of the potential for miscommunication and not assuming that what is obvious to her is obvious to him.
    Well, yeah. Even with the assumption that she genuinely likes him, there is a pretty big possibility for misunderstanding and backlash.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #43
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ Hey Orangey thanks for your thoughts. Just wanted to add that each person and situation is unique, and that means an appropriately customized approach. I just can't do that justice here in a thread that's about generalized ways to approach critique. And some people have better (or more practiced) skills, so that's a factor too. Since this is a thread soliciting an Fi perspective, that's what I'm offering. But it wouldn't work for all people, and I am not presenting it as such. Plus, there's so much more ... preserving the self-esteem and dignity of the individual, learning all the facts that might explain why someone is behaving a certain way, cultivating a relationship that can withstand honest and fair critique ... etc etc etc

    a really sensitive person (e.g., someone sensitive enough to be upset about indirect emails offering impersonal criticism)
    Note your own perspective and judgement. Why must someone be labelled "really sensitive" when to them this approach may seem passive aggressive and equally offensive?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #44
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    because tallulah's purpose is to help him, i suspect it's very unlikely that any compliments will come off fake, as long as she actually means them. Fi checks for "internal (feeling) consistency", and in this case her words will match up with her intent. ime, what Fi will erroneously read as fake more often is genuine Fe used as the person is also working towards a private Ni or Si goal. something about the person's bearing/speech/actions will tell you one thing, but another aspect will tell you something that's not really along that same track, and that's when you start feeling uneasy. but i've never really met an INTP who is likely to give undeserved praise!

    PB you have a good point about the sandwich thing, lol. you could totally feel ripped off - "hey i'm going to say great things about you BUT JUST KIDDING". i like your idea of negatives first - i think why i was thinking positives first in this case is because he might be feeling a little sore about his standing with the band in general. actually i think that's why my post in general was sooo about affirmation. i got the sense that maybe he has been frustrated about this for awhile.

    but he'd probably appreciate someone just coming out and saying it anyway, and being willing to talk about it with him, instead of distantly announcing it and not being there to support.

  5. #45
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ thanks skylights ... I agree and think your advice sound, and my concern is that to the readers here mine comes off as being a bit cold with negatives first, yet all my convos about this kind of stuff are steeped in tons of Fi love I used to feel uncomfortable to do it at all and couched it too much; now I try to be more direct without undue vacillating at the start.

    That whole 9 / avoid conflict thing.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 02-22-2011 at 10:32 AM.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #46
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    STP
    Posts
    10,501

    Default

    IMO, he sounds stifled in the group and it doesnt sound like it really is him or fits him. Where is this group going in the direction he wants to go, whats the future look like for him and who he is? Some people like immitating what they enjoy, some like stepping out of the box completely...some like taking someone elses work and making it there own. Maybe a heart to heart about what he wants, where the group is, see what he needs. Why is he good at some parts and not at others? What drives hime, what motivates him...does he not feel the part he struggles with, does he have a hard time with techniques, does those parts bore him...etc.

    The direction most people are going sounds like a talk your parents have with you...your grades are good son, but.... OR Your doing really good over here, if you focused over here a little more then things will really take off. Learn to beat yourself up, its a way to get past failure and motivate yourself...lol...sorry had to throw that in(Se driven observation of the world, not personal experience). Seems to be where this is going...what do I need to say to get him to do XYZ....he is Fi so I need to say it in an Fi friendly way...blah...blah...blah...

    and from the words of an INTP...I am now 2 cents poorer and I didnt have much coming into this one anyway.

    this post isnt type related at all...good night and sweet dreams....*i get the impression I should pass out from being drunk right after writing this, possibly fall off the stage(or sidewalk)*

  7. #47
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    Please don't quote this part, in case I decide to remove it later.

    Welp, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this subject, spurred by your responses here...and it's really clear to me that the ENFJ and I have been stifling the ENFP, INTJ and (possible) ESTJ. And we've kind of reached a boiling point in the past few days, because ENFJ doesn't respond well to the idea of the problem being a communication problem. (ESTJ made a comment that, while true, she saw as an insult toward her personally. I saw it as unfortunately phrased, but something he really felt was a valid issue.) She didn't like that no one leaped to defend her. I pointed out that it wasn't an insult--it was him genuinely saying how he felt, after a LONG time of mostly sucking it up and not making waves. No matter. She's pretty well done with him.

    She sees their interaction style as immature, passive-aggressive, sometimes too directive and bossy (which is very ironic, because they could say some of the same stuff about her style). She doesn't want to see it any differently right now. She's having trouble seeing how her actions have set in motion this feeling amongst the others of marginalization and unrest. She kind of just wants people to fall in line, and if they don't, she wants a personnel change. It's been hell on me, because she's not being reasonable right now, and I feel like the others are being characterized unfairly. So, INTJ and I are going to have a confab tomorrow about how to fix this. Right now, we're thinking we can come up with a game plan for having a band meeting. This could be healing, or it could be something that will explode in our faces.
    Something Witty

  8. #48
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Wow....I guess it's been going on too long, so there are too many frustrations on both sides. It's kinda funny the two introverts are going to mediate
    Tallullah, I wouldn't wanna be in your spot right now, but you're doing awesome, so keep going! Just know that it might be too late, but it's definitely worth a shot




    Oh @ people who discussed the sandwich feedback

    I dunno which version you learned but I learned the one where 'BUT' is *not* allowed.

    The 3 rules for the sandwich feedback I learned were:

    1) something something possitive [insert what needs improving] general conclusion positive recap
    2) Always always use 'I' and never 'you'
    3) NEVER EVER use 'But'. Always use 'And'.

    So:

    I think you did a really great job today, AND I think if you do this and this to add on to that, or perhaps twist that in to that, it could be even greater. OVERALL however, so far, it's awesome.

    For a more negative example:

    I think it's a great concept, AND I feel that if you add this or this to it, or try it this way,it will be great. OVERALL though, I'd say you made an excellent start.


    'And' is way less intrusive than 'But' ever will be. We've become allergic to the word 'but' due to 'yes, but'-ting.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #49
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    ^^

    Oh, that's good! Thank you for the example. If I get an opportunity, I will try that tonight.

    Yeah, it's been going on a while. I kind of had a Sixth Sense moment when I realized how serious it was--I flashed back to all the times we've had conflicts and all the times the guys have tried to tell us the way they like to work, or something they're frustrated with. It just didn't really register at the time, because I didn't realize it was a Fe-Fi conflict. It just seemed like, "Let's do it this way." "I don't want to...let's do it this way, instead." Or sometimes, unfortunately, the ENFJ would say, "We don't need to do it that way. We're doing it this way." I've talked to her several times about her tendency to seem dismissive of people and pronounce things. The bass player, our other peacemaker, has, too.
    Something Witty

  10. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I think you did a really great job today, AND I think if you do this and this to add on to that, or perhaps twist that in to that, it could be even greater. OVERALL however, so far, it's awesome.

    For a more negative example:

    I think it's a great concept, AND I feel that if you add this or this to it, or try it this way,it will be great. OVERALL though, I'd say you made an excellent start.


    'And' is way less intrusive than 'But' ever will be. We've become allergic to the word 'but' due to 'yes, but'-ting.
    You are right on about this.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

Similar Threads

  1. [ISFP] Friend need some help in understanding ISFP actions!
    By pecan111 in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 03-13-2009, 12:46 AM
  2. I need professional help
    By entropie in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-06-2009, 01:31 AM
  3. [ENFP] I need some help with my mom.
    By BlackCat in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-26-2009, 03:18 AM
  4. [INFP] I need some help with an INFP...
    By Nadiar in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 12-03-2008, 01:48 PM
  5. [ENFP] please i need your help please read
    By Eng.daisy in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 08-01-2008, 09:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO