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Thread: Need Fi help!

  1. #31
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    I don't think I really need to have my value told to me in words. Not these days anyway, when I was younger you would have got more out of me that way. It is more that I'd like to be told face to face. I'm used to being told straight, it is more that I can read where you are coming from if you say it to me. You know what I mean? It is fairly obvious where someone is coming from if they say it to you.

    Something like this happened at work recently and instead of talking to me specifically about it and then the group there was only the group discussion. I talked with another person involved about it, about being talked about changes you need to make directly and she didn't look like that was her thing. I guess it really does depend on the person. I was talking with my wife about it too and she agreed with the group approach, maybe I am just weird. She said "You want them to tell you straight?"

    It stings a bit to be told directly. But I prefer it that way. I want to know where I stand with someone.

    Hope this helps.
    This is good to know! I'm not sure if he's normally like that or not, but it might be that he'd appreciate the straightforwardness if it were done in a one-on-one manner. I think he just gets keyed up if he's asked to work on something when there are others around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    There's no use throwing a hurdle under a jumping horse. Further, if you treat this man like an ENFP, there's no use closing the barn door...

    ...watch what I tell ya.


    (Si anchors Ne.)
    Hee, maybe I'm just tired, but I'm not sure I'm following. Does that mean a little encouragement will make him run amok?

    More to come!
    Something Witty

  2. #32
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    agree with wolfy about getting it told to you straight. it's gonna sting either way, might as well be in a "safe" 1-on-1 where i'm not worrying about how i'm coming off to everyone. when it's in a group i just want to run and hide... when it's not addressed directly at me somehow it feels like public humiliation to me. like everyone knows who we're talking about, and someone at the top decided that the shame provoked by addressing it in front of everyone would make it more likely for me to change. except it actually just makes me want to throw things and cry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is good to know! I'm not sure if he's normally like that or not, but it might be that he'd appreciate the straightforwardness if it were done in a one-on-one manner. I think he just gets keyed up if he's asked to work on something when there are others around.
    yeah. i can see how it could feel embarrassing and frustrating. what happens to me is that i try to perform whatever again, but i'm aware that others are expecting a better job, so i get all worried that i'm being judged, and then i don't pay attention, and then i mess up again. bad cycle. if it's addressed in private then i can work on it in private, where it's easier.

    not that all of this necessarily applies to your ENFP, but food for thought. if he's feeling that way then perhaps it explains some of his resistance.

  3. #33
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    agree with wolfy about getting it told to you straight. it's gonna sting either way, might as well be in a "safe" 1-on-1 where i'm not worrying about how i'm coming off to everyone. when it's in a group i just want to run and hide... when it's not addressed directly at me somehow it feels like public humiliation to me. like everyone knows who we're talking about, and someone at the top decided that the shame provoked by addressing it in front of everyone would make it more likely for me to change. except it actually just makes me want to throw things and cry.



    yeah. i can see how it could feel embarrassing and frustrating. what happens to me is that i try to perform whatever again, but i'm aware that others are expecting a better job, so i get all worried that i'm being judged, and then i don't pay attention, and then i mess up again. bad cycle. if it's addressed in private then i can work on it in private, where it's easier.

    not that all of this necessarily applies to your ENFP, but food for thought. if he's feeling that way then perhaps it explains some of his resistance.
    This definitely makes sense...and it's interesting because for me, I'm less embarrassed if I'm not being called out, probably because I know everyone is probably going to think it's about them, too, and it allows me to save face. But it seems to work the opposite way for y'all. Do you think it matters who does the pulling aside? Sometimes I feel like it's not my place because I'm not really the band leader (we don't have an official one; it's a democracy, mostly, but ENFJ singer and our bass player started the band, so they're sort of de facto leaders). But I do know I'm way more likely to try and reach out to him in a way he can relate to than she will be.
    Something Witty

  4. #34
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Tallulah: good job asking about the Fi aspects of this! It's exactly what you need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This is very insightful...I keep forgetting that some people extrovert their ideas before they're fully baked, and I like the brainstorming/collaborative process, but sometimes I have to have it framed like that, maybe...so I know we're just throwing ideas out, and some of them might not be feasible.
    Heh, it's funny that you're saying this as an INTP: I'm used to having to be patient waiting for INTP ideas to gel. I guess it's different because music is "F"?


    He really is a good guitar player. He's gotten sloppy with certain things lately, though; things he'd never have been sloppy about in the beginning, but he had more to prove then, maybe.
    I bet you could say the bolded to him verbatim. The first sentence has the requisite appreciation, and the 2nd has an explicit declaration of what he needs to improve on. I bet he has no issues with improving on things that the rest of you believe he needs to improve, but the typical ENFJ dancing around the issue (by addressing the group) won't work.

    All Fi needs is to be appreciated, and constructive criticism on how to improve. In practice, this means identifying areas of excellence that don't need improvement (which lets him feel confident and appreciated), and the identifying areas in need of improvement, with which he will likely agree. To him, it's just an honest (Te) assessment, as long as there is no "emo" content to the criticism. That's the hard part: it's difficult for Fe criticism to not come off as "emo."

    Very helpful, thanks! I will have to think about how to tap into another Fi value without making it sound like Fe-get-in-line-and-don't-let-us-down. Can you think of a way to couch that in Fi terms? The stuff he's not fixing kind of brings down our real estate, even though a lot of other stuff he does is really good. We sound so much more polished when everyone is mindful of the nitpicky, musician-y stuff like dynamics.
    Just remember that he views the technical stuff in Te terms, not Fe terms. In Te terms, he will be very precise and even self-critical in terms of what needs improvement. The mixup with Te/Fi vs Fe/Ti is that Fe/Ti is fine with emo-criticism, while Te can't make sense of emo-criticism and Fi is hurt by emo-criticism. The criticism needs to be emotion-free, factual, objective, and obvious. The Fe-emo-criticism has tones of "you're not good enough for us," while Te-objective-criticism, for him, gets to the point of, "here are areas for improvement." PB and Esoteric are good sources for the exact words to use, since as an INTJ, I tend to be more harsh than most Fi-types would appreciate. But overall, you don't want to soft-pedal the criticism.

    You just want to remove all trace of condemnation, yet without being "nice." Ideally, one would "glow" with appreciation and love (Fi), even as one "harshly" lists what needs improvement (Te).
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #35
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    This definitely makes sense...and it's interesting because for me, I'm less embarrassed if I'm not being called out, probably because I know everyone is probably going to think it's about them, too, and it allows me to save face. But it seems to work the opposite way for y'all. Do you think it matters who does the pulling aside? Sometimes I feel like it's not my place because I'm not really the band leader (we don't have an official one; it's a democracy, mostly, but ENFJ singer and our bass player started the band, so they're sort of de facto leaders). But I do know I'm way more likely to try and reach out to him in a way he can relate to than she will be.
    haha, that's a good point about everyone else wondering if it's them too! i should remember that

    it actually might take a little pressure off if it weren't the ENFJ or other leading member - i don't think he will question your authority or anything, as long as you support him in a Fi-way, as uumlau described - appreciating him and complementing him on what he does well, and acknowledging that he is an important member of the band. and actually if you're thinking totally in Te-Fi terms, there isn't really as much a feeling of "place" in the social sense - what matters Te-wise is whether you're right about the facts (where he's not doing as well) or not. if you present logical evidence for what he should change, then he's likely to agree with it. you could almost come to it thinking how you would talk to a best friend if they were in this situation - creating a feeling of "we are close, you are safe with me." ideally he'll feel like that with every band member - a positive 1:1 feeling. with Fe leadership he may be lacking that a bit. NFJ leaders are excellent, imo, but can feel a bit distant.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I bet you could say the bolded to him verbatim. The first sentence has the requisite appreciation, and the 2nd has an explicit declaration of what he needs to improve on. I bet he has no issues with improving on things that the rest of you believe he needs to improve, but the typical ENFJ dancing around the issue (by addressing the group) won't work.

    All Fi needs is to be appreciated, and constructive criticism on how to improve. In practice, this means identifying areas of excellence that don't need improvement (which lets him feel confident and appreciated), and the identifying areas in need of improvement, with which he will likely agree.


    tallulah you could, just as an example, go something along the lines of "hey can we talk? i really liked ____ that you were doing last night (let him get excited and talk about it). you really are a good guitar player, and everyone really appreciates _____. but i feel like i should tell you it seems like you've kind of gotten sloppy with a few things lately, and i think it's kind of throwing the band off sometimes. are you having trouble with anything lately?" (it's possible that he may open up and spill some emotional gobbity-goo about feeling criticized and singled out. you can totally just affirm that you don't think anyone meant to, they were just trying to be nice about it, and everyone really appreciates (good things) he does as a band member.)

    and then you can talk about whatever he's doing - key is to offer him some ideas for improvement, so it doesn't just feel like criticism. the sandwich method is great too - one supporting statement; one criticism; one supporting statement. it's good in terms of the talk overall, but also in terms of couching overall points. "you're great with expression, but sometimes your dynamics are throwing off the overall (adj) feeling of (song). i love that energy though, maybe you can try to transfer it to (other song)." etc. the concept of the feeling of a song will probably be significant to him, he may even want to discuss the feeling of it. perhaps he's interpreting certain things differently, and it could help to have someone who sees it in a different light reframe it for him (with Ne dom he should be quick to accept and accommodate new interpretations). asking him to redirect, as opposed to suppress, his creativity should be helpful as well. when i'm working on a project, i definitely don't mind redirecting my energies, but i hate feeling like they've gone totally unappreciated and someone just wants to make them stop. i guess the concept of "affirm and redirect" could apply to the whole conversation.

    uumlau is right, PB and EW are excellent sources of Fi-speak. i suspect you don't need to stress too much about Te wording as long as you are clear with the Fi wording - making sure to be clear that you and the others like and value him. if that's covered, i think things should go fairly smoothly otherwise. when i'm in a situation where i am to receive criticism, i just want it to be as clear, direct, and fast as possible, because i want it to be over with and i want to fix it asap. he may even ask if there's any other things you think he could work on. if he does start freaking out for whatever reason, reassurance that you value him and are talking to him because you like him and what he does for the band should cover it. he may need to get a little emo out if he's felt frustrated about this, which unfortunately i suspect he may - if anything, it should be a little storm that passes quickly though. you may want to keep in mind that if this happens, he may divert to language that feels harsh to you, so that you don't get hurt too

    anyway, it probably seems like a whole lot of ridiculous positive support, but i promise it'll be worth your efforts. the more he comes off feeling like he's an important member of the band, the more he's going to be enthused to work on the things you tell him about. at the end of things, he'll probably very, very much appreciate that you came to talk to him.
    Last edited by skylights; 02-21-2011 at 04:04 PM. Reason: bother bother bother

  6. #36
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    i think enfps can handle blunt a bit easier then disguised criticism. you don't really need to pussyfoot around it...no need to walk on eggshells and so carefully choose your words. that almost always just feels patronizing. maybe just state that you all have to work together. not one of you can be out of sync. tell him that he needs to pay more attention to the sound as a whole....just flat out tell him what you need from him and tell him that you hope he'd tell you the same.

    also should say that i think the way you are trying to approach this is awesome...just stress to him that everyone has an equal voice and should be allowed to address concerns openly and that it takes everyone working together...you just need to get on the same page and get him to fully understand what you're trying to achieve.

    just read some of the above responses and think they're right on too.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #37
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    One thing, though. Since Fi is apparently so concerned with "integrity," wouldn't the sandwich method come off as a bit disingenuous? That is, wouldn't the compliment-criticism-compliment format make it seem like the compliments were just thrown in there to protect the guy's feelings, and not really because they were real compliments?
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  8. #38
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Ideally, one would "glow" with appreciation and love (Fi), even as one "harshly" lists what needs improvement (Te).
    Yes, exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    One thing, though. Since Fi is apparently so concerned with "integrity," wouldn't the sandwich method come off as a bit disingenuous? That is, wouldn't the compliment-criticism-compliment format make it seem like the compliments were just thrown in there to protect the guy's feelings, and not really because they were real compliments?
    Affirmation or compliments are not disingenuous when they are sincere. And if one attempts a fake compliment just to open a door, it won't get very far, as even a very young Fi-er can tell the difference between a real compliment and a fake, unearned one.

    As for the "sandwich technique" I favor one where the negatives come out first, then followed with relevant positives. I don't think starting with a positive to be necessary when you end with a whole whack of positives.

    EDIT: The reason why is because I like to avoid the word "but" ... the sandwich often comes out as "You are doing a great job BUT blah blah blah negative don't hear anything else you say for the rest of the discussion". Starting with the challenge areas, then with affirmation, means you don't have to get involved with that dangerous word.

    BUT ... but nothing!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  9. #39
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    One thing, though. Since Fi is apparently so concerned with "integrity," wouldn't the sandwich method come off as a bit disingenuous? That is, wouldn't the compliment-criticism-compliment format make it seem like the compliments were just thrown in there to protect the guy's feelings, and not really because they were real compliments?
    This is true to a degree, that Fi can tell the difference between wheat bread and white bread "sandwiches," and Tallulah will need to watch out for that. The main way to do it is to keep it simple and concrete. A vague, "I really value you," will sound fake without either a concrete example or exactly the right tone of voice. To make it concrete, just mention a particular song/piece where his playing shines; the concreteness makes it obvious that you're paying attention to his contribution, and thus value him, and thus any criticism is along the lines of, "You're really good on this piece, so what's missing from your playing on this other one?"

    Also, it helps that Tallulah is there in person, and really does like him want to help, and for the most part, that will come through as "integrity." So it's more a matter of being aware of the potential for miscommunication and not assuming that what is obvious to her is obvious to him.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  10. #40
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I had wondered about the above, too. AND about how to avoid the "but," so it won't sound like I'm only saying nice things to get to the "but..."

    Still taking stuff in, and will write more responses later! I gotta prepare for my teacher evaluation tomorrow, so my attention span is not the greatest right now. But I am really learning some good stuff here.
    Something Witty

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